WEBVTT

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All right.

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A new study finds that big tech tracks

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you even when you've opted out.

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Cal.com will no longer be open source and

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some big developments in US and EU privacy

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and surveillance.

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All this and more coming up on This

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Week in Privacy number forty nine.

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So stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we've been

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working on within the Privacy Guides

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community and this week's top stories in

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data privacy and cybersecurity.

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I'm Jordan,

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and with me this week is Nate.

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How are you, Nate?

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I'm good.

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It's been a busy week,

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but I guess I can't complain.

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How are you?

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Yes, also a busy week,

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but now let's jump into the biggest news

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in privacy and security from the past

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week.

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So this story here from four or four

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media, Google, Microsoft meta,

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all tracking you, even when you opt out,

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according to an independent audit.

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Uh,

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an independent privacy audit of Microsoft

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meta and Google web traffic in California

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found that the companies may be violating

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state regulations and racking up billions

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in fines.

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According to the audit from privacy search

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engine web x-ray.

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Fifty-five percent of sites it checked set

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ad cookies in a user's browser even if

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they opted out of tracking.

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Each company disputed or took issue with

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the research,

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with Google saying it was based on a

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fundamental misunderstanding of how its

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product works.

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So this company itself, WebXRay,

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they viewed web traffic on more than seven

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thousand popular websites in California in

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the month of March and found that most

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tech companies ignore when a user asks to

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opt out of cookie tracking.

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And this is specifically concerning

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because California has privacy

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legislation,

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thanks to its California Consumer Privacy

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Act, which allows users to,

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among other things,

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opt out of the sale of their personal

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information.

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And there's basically a system called the

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Global Privacy Control,

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which is basically a...

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In some browsers,

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it's a switch and in some other browsers,

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it's an extension that you have to

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install.

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According to the Web X-Ray audit,

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Google failed to let users opt out of

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eighty seven percent of the time.

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Google's failure to honor the GPC opt out

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signal is easy to find in network traffic.

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Now,

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I think this is kind of always been

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a

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concerning thing right there's these

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opt-out signals and we're not really sure

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how effective they are right because a lot

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of these signals themselves right they are

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often ignored like we saw the do not

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track signal that used to be kind of

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big right um that was also ignored by

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a lot of websites and now we're also

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looking at this new thing which is

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GPC so a lot of companies basically argue

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that they're not really sure what this

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means and they're just gonna track you

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anyway which is kind of silly right so

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you know it's not really that surprising

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to see that so many websites don't comply

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with this did you have any thoughts on

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this Nate I feel like this is

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unfortunately kind of like I assumed this

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was kind of going on so

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Yeah, I mean it's um...

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I don't know.

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I do have a I mean,

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I always have thoughts on things.

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I mean, first of all,

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it's it's I do want to point out,

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well, OK,

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to assume this is always going on.

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I agree with you.

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But I do want to know a couple

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of things that GPC is supposed to be

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an improvement over do not track because

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GPC is actually legally recognized under

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certain privacy laws like the California

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Consumer Privacy Act, for example.

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So websites are required to honor it.

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So.

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I'm with you.

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When this was initially announced,

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GPC specifically, I was kind of also like,

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I don't know,

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why would companies listen to this?

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Like they already don't listen to things.

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But I was also kind of hopeful because,

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again, it is like legally required.

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And we have seen in the past that

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typically companies will – and I'll touch

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on this in a second in the article.

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But like companies do –

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they kind of like to ignore things right

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up until they get caught.

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And then they're like, ah, okay,

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you got me.

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We'll play along.

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Or, you know,

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they'll at least start to play along.

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Usually it's,

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they kind of have to get caught a

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few times,

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but they get caught and they change what

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they do.

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And, um, so I don't know.

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I,

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I guess I was hoping that maybe this

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would go somewhere and it still might if,

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if that's what happens here.

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But, um,

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I think the real issue here,

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and this person that they interviewed from

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WebXRay kind of talked about this.

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Oh, where did it go, actually?

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Okay, yeah.

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So this person who used to work at

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Web, or excuse me, Timothy Liebert,

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who founded WebXRay,

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he used to work at Google.

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And

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He said that he told four or four

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media he felt his job at Google was

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to protect its users,

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but his bosses didn't agree.

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And he left the company in twenty twenty

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three to start Web X-ray.

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And this is a quote from him.

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Shortly before I left,

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my boss told me direct quote.

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My job is to protect the company.

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There was another time I got into a

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very serious ontological discussion with a

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fairly senior engineer about what the

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difference was between taxes and fines.

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And they didn't understand there was a

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difference.

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And I think this is something that a

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lot of people in the privacy space have

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noticed is I think the issue here is

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these companies,

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the fines are not really fines.

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They're just cost of doing business.

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Like I remember,

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I wish I could remember which story it

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was,

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but Meta got in trouble for something and

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they got issued a fine.

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And the article kind of openly said –

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like they didn't make a point of saying

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it.

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It was kind of just like a real

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quick sentence that if you weren't paying

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attention, you wouldn't even notice it.

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But the article basically said like,

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oh yeah,

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Meta is going to contest the fine because

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basically it's bigger than they thought it

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would be.

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Like they don't even care that they got

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fined.

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They don't even care that they're wrong.

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They're just like, no, no, no.

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We set aside a certain amount of money

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to pay these fines, quote-unquote fines,

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which are really just a cost of doing

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business and a tax like he said.

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But it's more than we budgeted for,

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and that's why we're going to fight it.

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It would be like if you got up

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to the register and you're going to buy

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– like you go to the grocery store,

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the corner store, whatever,

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and you're going to buy a soda.

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And they're like, oh, it's five dollars.

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It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Hold on.

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I have five dollars,

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but this should only be three dollars or

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maybe it is five dollars now with

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inflation.

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But you know what I mean?

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It's like it's not even that I don't

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have the money.

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That's not how much I set aside for

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this thing,

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and that's basically how these companies

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treat it.

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Yeah.

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I think to give a little bit of

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a benefit of the doubt,

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I think it's tricky to find these

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companies sometimes in the sense that

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like,

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These big tech companies like Meta,

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Microsoft, Google,

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you want to be able to levy a

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fine that's going to hurt them and going

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to make them pay attention and stop doing

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this crap.

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But at the same time,

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you need to write the laws in a

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way where it's like privacy guides,

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for example.

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It doesn't wipe us out if we –

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not that we do any of this stuff,

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but if we make a mistake somehow and

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we're accidentally collecting something we

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didn't know, I don't know,

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just throwing it out there.

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A fine that is one percent of Meta's

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hourly revenue would wipe us out.

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And so you want to find that ground

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where you're not destroying the small

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guys, but at the same time,

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you're still hurting the big guys.

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And I do have some sympathy for that.

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But at the same time,

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I feel like as far as I know,

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there's no laws being weighed right now or

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suggested.

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So, I mean,

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it's not like they're really trying to fix

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that.

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But that's really the problem is just that

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the penalties for doing this stuff are.

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just a cost of doing business.

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And yeah, I don't know,

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really unfortunate, but I guess.

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I think, oh, sorry.

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No, go ahead.

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I think like I do think it's interesting

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what you said is the the the stuff

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about finding a company based like,

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you know,

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if you don't want to destroy all the

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small companies,

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I feel like we could kind of get

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around that.

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Maybe if we had like, you know,

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proportional of their earnings,

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like based on their profits or revenue,

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maybe.

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But, you know,

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obviously I feel like our governments are

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too

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captured by these big tech companies and

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lobbying and all that sort of stuff um

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so it's probably not super likely but I

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think you know having a fine that is

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actually proportionate to how much they

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make because I don't know I guess that

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might be hard to argue from a from

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a um a damage perspective right like if

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they were if they were collecting let's

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say

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all of Americans data that wouldn't even

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be that much of the entire globe right

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for meta because meta has like billions of

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users so um it'd be hard to say

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like just uh in California you know even

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less so um I feel like it might

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be hard to argue the fine being so

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large I guess um but it's still a

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problem uh I don't know what the

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answer is but I do think they need

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to be fined more especially for not um

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complying with this stuff but it's good

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though I didn't realize the GPC stuff

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actually was um related to like legal

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stuff like there was a legal precedent

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behind it so that's good um but I

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guess it's like you said it's kind of

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the cost of doing business for these

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companies

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Yeah, it's very – like I said,

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that was kind of what gave me hope

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for it because when I first heard about

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it too, I'm like, we already did this.

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What's different this time?

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But it's the legal enforcement.

00:10:10.684 --> 00:10:13.107
But it's – I don't know.

00:10:13.148 --> 00:10:14.730
The street proportional thing,

00:10:15.110 --> 00:10:16.812
I have mixed opinions on because we'll

00:10:16.831 --> 00:10:22.207
take – if my project –

00:10:22.481 --> 00:10:22.902
I'll just say it.

00:10:22.942 --> 00:10:23.562
Like the new oil,

00:10:23.663 --> 00:10:24.865
I published transparency reports.

00:10:25.284 --> 00:10:26.647
I made twenty thousand dollars last year,

00:10:26.687 --> 00:10:29.250
which was by far the most I've ever

00:10:29.289 --> 00:10:29.551
made.

00:10:30.010 --> 00:10:31.432
And so let's say a ten percent penalty.

00:10:31.472 --> 00:10:31.614
Right.

00:10:31.653 --> 00:10:32.615
That's two thousand dollars.

00:10:33.096 --> 00:10:34.336
I don't have that in the bank right

00:10:34.376 --> 00:10:34.517
now.

00:10:34.576 --> 00:10:35.899
Most of that money has been spent on

00:10:35.938 --> 00:10:36.659
various things.

00:10:37.662 --> 00:10:39.183
But, you know, ten percent,

00:10:39.484 --> 00:10:40.705
two thousand dollars for me is a lot

00:10:40.725 --> 00:10:42.647
of money that would wipe me out.

00:10:43.006 --> 00:10:44.229
Whereas for Meta, you know,

00:10:44.288 --> 00:10:45.549
ten percent of their what,

00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:47.532
ten trillion dollars they made last year

00:10:47.552 --> 00:10:47.831
or whatever.

00:10:47.851 --> 00:10:48.111
I don't know.

00:10:48.153 --> 00:10:48.592
I could look it up.

00:10:48.613 --> 00:10:49.113
But you know what I mean?

00:10:49.133 --> 00:10:50.174
Like ten percent for them,

00:10:50.195 --> 00:10:51.456
they're already paying four percent.

00:10:51.475 --> 00:10:51.995
They don't care.

00:10:52.317 --> 00:10:54.778
Like it's just it it doesn't scale the

00:10:54.818 --> 00:10:54.958
same.

00:10:54.999 --> 00:10:55.158
You know,

00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.201
a person who's making one hundred thousand

00:10:57.221 --> 00:10:58.863
dollars a year and gets a ten percent

00:10:58.903 --> 00:10:59.524
speeding ticket.

00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:01.660
To them,

00:11:01.681 --> 00:11:03.383
that's just a much smaller amount as

00:11:03.423 --> 00:11:05.485
opposed to a person who's making forty

00:11:05.525 --> 00:11:06.287
thousand dollars a year.

00:11:06.326 --> 00:11:08.110
So, I mean, I hear you like that.

00:11:08.190 --> 00:11:09.371
I just feel like that's not really.

00:11:10.734 --> 00:11:11.595
I feel like that's not really a

00:11:11.654 --> 00:11:14.197
sustainable solution.

00:11:14.238 --> 00:11:15.740
Personally, I could be wrong, but.

00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:17.679
I don't know.

00:11:18.341 --> 00:11:18.740
It's tricky.

00:11:18.780 --> 00:11:19.120
But yeah,

00:11:19.181 --> 00:11:20.501
I think that is the solution is until

00:11:20.542 --> 00:11:23.322
we like get some kind of better legal

00:11:23.363 --> 00:11:23.903
enforcement,

00:11:24.003 --> 00:11:25.183
I don't think these companies are going to

00:11:25.203 --> 00:11:26.083
stop doing what they do.

00:11:26.124 --> 00:11:27.365
And I think the,

00:11:28.164 --> 00:11:28.865
what was his name again?

00:11:28.924 --> 00:11:31.166
This Liebert, this Timothy Liebert,

00:11:31.206 --> 00:11:33.267
he even said that too in this article.

00:11:33.506 --> 00:11:36.067
But I think,

00:11:37.629 --> 00:11:38.929
I guess a question for you,

00:11:38.970 --> 00:11:39.690
what would you recommend?

00:11:39.710 --> 00:11:40.129
Because I mean,

00:11:40.470 --> 00:11:41.811
I think the solution here is

00:11:42.495 --> 00:11:43.876
In my opinion would be that we,

00:11:44.017 --> 00:11:44.636
we kind of, you know,

00:11:44.697 --> 00:11:45.958
a lot of people argue that laws don't

00:11:45.999 --> 00:11:47.780
work and that we need to force companies

00:11:47.801 --> 00:11:48.841
to respect our wishes.

00:11:49.302 --> 00:11:50.062
And I think they kind of got a

00:11:50.123 --> 00:11:51.083
point with this kind of stuff.

00:11:51.284 --> 00:11:51.404
Like,

00:11:51.424 --> 00:11:52.245
I don't know if I'd go so far

00:11:52.265 --> 00:11:53.326
as to say laws don't work,

00:11:53.386 --> 00:11:55.609
but I think we need to do what

00:11:55.629 --> 00:11:57.951
we can to force companies to respect our

00:11:57.971 --> 00:11:58.753
wishes regardless.

00:11:58.793 --> 00:11:58.993
Right.

00:12:00.818 --> 00:12:02.259
I mean, I think it's,

00:12:02.801 --> 00:12:04.302
I think people get too caught up in

00:12:04.361 --> 00:12:05.562
black and white thinking, right?

00:12:05.582 --> 00:12:08.325
Like you can definitely use the laws as

00:12:08.365 --> 00:12:10.346
well as doing things to protect yourself,

00:12:10.386 --> 00:12:10.567
right?

00:12:10.586 --> 00:12:13.028
Like I wouldn't like just use a browser,

00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:14.169
not harden it at all,

00:12:14.551 --> 00:12:16.392
share as much information as possible,

00:12:16.972 --> 00:12:20.936
rely on this like somewhat nebulous global

00:12:20.975 --> 00:12:23.839
privacy thing.

00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:25.259
Like, you know, I think it'd be,

00:12:26.812 --> 00:12:29.115
a thing that you could use that along

00:12:29.174 --> 00:12:32.357
with like a fingerprint resistant browser

00:12:32.398 --> 00:12:34.721
to protect yourself a bit more, um,

00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:36.523
not share as much information,

00:12:36.743 --> 00:12:38.225
use email aliases,

00:12:39.285 --> 00:12:40.386
secondary phone numbers,

00:12:40.427 --> 00:12:42.208
stuff like that to protect yourself.

00:12:42.509 --> 00:12:44.431
Um, because yeah, a lot of cases,

00:12:44.471 --> 00:12:46.774
I'm not really sure if this global privacy

00:12:46.813 --> 00:12:47.634
control thing is

00:12:49.428 --> 00:12:51.990
to be respected like this company said but

00:12:52.030 --> 00:12:53.552
i also think it's kind of interesting that

00:12:53.591 --> 00:12:58.836
this person um i think you read earlier

00:12:58.855 --> 00:12:59.756
that they were um

00:13:00.697 --> 00:13:04.278
part of the Google team working on like

00:13:04.298 --> 00:13:05.697
the cookie compliance stuff.

00:13:06.758 --> 00:13:07.918
I think it's like,

00:13:08.719 --> 00:13:10.078
I'm not entirely sure what they're

00:13:10.119 --> 00:13:10.698
expecting.

00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.000
Like you go to work at the largest

00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.961
data collector in the world and you expect

00:13:16.980 --> 00:13:18.900
them to care about like respecting

00:13:18.921 --> 00:13:19.741
people's privacy.

00:13:19.782 --> 00:13:20.522
I'm not really sure.

00:13:21.581 --> 00:13:21.761
I mean,

00:13:21.822 --> 00:13:23.562
I guess maybe you could make the argument

00:13:23.582 --> 00:13:25.442
that like you are trying to change it

00:13:25.462 --> 00:13:26.783
from the inside, but like,

00:13:27.004 --> 00:13:29.024
I'm not like friends don't let friends

00:13:29.124 --> 00:13:31.784
work at like big tech corporations.

00:13:31.845 --> 00:13:32.885
Like let's, let's, you know,

00:13:32.966 --> 00:13:34.586
it's not a great idea.

00:13:36.067 --> 00:13:36.407
Yeah.

00:13:36.567 --> 00:13:37.626
I, um, first of all,

00:13:37.726 --> 00:13:38.746
I think that was a great answer with

00:13:38.767 --> 00:13:39.607
the black and white thinking.

00:13:39.648 --> 00:13:40.268
I think you're right.

00:13:40.488 --> 00:13:40.988
Um, I'm,

00:13:41.048 --> 00:13:43.509
I'm a real big fan of using multiple

00:13:43.528 --> 00:13:43.908
approaches.

00:13:43.948 --> 00:13:44.149
Right.

00:13:44.188 --> 00:13:44.708
So like, yeah,

00:13:44.769 --> 00:13:46.750
you should use a hardened browser and,

00:13:46.970 --> 00:13:48.971
and Tor VPN, all that kind of stuff,

00:13:49.051 --> 00:13:49.730
but also.

00:13:50.375 --> 00:13:52.557
we should push for better privacy laws and

00:13:52.596 --> 00:13:53.197
stuff like that.

00:13:53.217 --> 00:13:54.759
So fantastic answer.

00:13:54.798 --> 00:13:55.538
Thank you for saying that.

00:13:55.578 --> 00:13:56.759
But yeah, I mean,

00:13:56.820 --> 00:13:57.821
as far as this guy specifically,

00:13:57.860 --> 00:13:59.081
I don't know when he started at Google.

00:13:59.101 --> 00:14:00.743
So it could be like, you know,

00:14:00.763 --> 00:14:02.082
there was that book, Careless People,

00:14:02.143 --> 00:14:03.464
that was written by the lady,

00:14:03.803 --> 00:14:04.565
Sarah Wynn Williams,

00:14:04.585 --> 00:14:05.666
that used to work at Facebook.

00:14:06.145 --> 00:14:06.645
And to be fair,

00:14:06.686 --> 00:14:08.307
she got there back in like, what,

00:14:08.366 --> 00:14:08.888
two thousand...

00:14:10.082 --> 00:14:12.183
like eight or something like back when,

00:14:12.303 --> 00:14:14.325
when Facebook was still like had the

00:14:14.345 --> 00:14:16.466
potential to be good and she kind of

00:14:16.525 --> 00:14:18.407
watched it become the cancer that it is

00:14:18.466 --> 00:14:18.767
now.

00:14:18.966 --> 00:14:20.407
So I don't know,

00:14:20.447 --> 00:14:21.707
like if this dude had been there from

00:14:21.748 --> 00:14:23.269
the start back when Google used to say,

00:14:23.328 --> 00:14:24.009
don't be evil.

00:14:24.068 --> 00:14:25.269
And back when you Google stood up to

00:14:25.330 --> 00:14:26.730
China and all that kind of stuff,

00:14:27.110 --> 00:14:28.571
then I could kind of see, but yeah,

00:14:28.591 --> 00:14:30.152
I feel like, um,

00:14:30.231 --> 00:14:31.412
I feel like with these big tech companies

00:14:31.451 --> 00:14:31.871
these days,

00:14:31.892 --> 00:14:32.832
you kind of have to hit a point

00:14:32.852 --> 00:14:33.312
where you're just like,

00:14:33.332 --> 00:14:34.514
they're not going to change.

00:14:34.553 --> 00:14:35.734
Like, you know what you're getting into.

00:14:35.793 --> 00:14:37.674
And I don't, I don't, I have, um,

00:14:39.105 --> 00:14:39.986
I feel this way about a lot of

00:14:40.027 --> 00:14:40.567
systems.

00:14:41.989 --> 00:14:42.830
I want to be careful how I say

00:14:42.850 --> 00:14:43.010
this,

00:14:43.051 --> 00:14:44.852
but I feel like there's certain systems

00:14:45.134 --> 00:14:47.115
around the world that just kind of like

00:14:48.234 --> 00:14:48.634
I don't know.

00:14:48.714 --> 00:14:49.995
I'm kind of cynical on if they can

00:14:50.015 --> 00:14:50.515
be changed.

00:14:50.535 --> 00:14:51.937
It's like you either get corrupted and

00:14:51.976 --> 00:14:53.479
become part of the problem or you get

00:14:53.599 --> 00:14:55.801
forced out because you refuse to fall in

00:14:55.841 --> 00:14:57.422
line because you're trying to make things

00:14:57.461 --> 00:14:57.802
better.

00:14:57.881 --> 00:14:59.062
And unfortunately,

00:14:59.082 --> 00:15:00.063
I think big tech is one of those

00:15:00.083 --> 00:15:01.666
systems that nine out of ten times or

00:15:01.706 --> 00:15:02.947
ninety nine out of a hundred times.

00:15:04.408 --> 00:15:05.568
It just it is what it is.

00:15:05.629 --> 00:15:07.049
And it's hard to change.

00:15:07.070 --> 00:15:07.711
It's an uphill battle.

00:15:07.730 --> 00:15:09.412
So.

00:15:09.993 --> 00:15:10.232
But yeah.

00:15:10.472 --> 00:15:10.732
Yeah,

00:15:11.014 --> 00:15:14.076
but I think like to talk a little

00:15:14.116 --> 00:15:16.620
bit more about like using those both

00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:18.461
angles on this approach, like, you know,

00:15:18.721 --> 00:15:20.303
trying to enforce these privacy laws.

00:15:20.323 --> 00:15:21.965
We do have an activism section on our

00:15:22.004 --> 00:15:22.686
website now.

00:15:22.865 --> 00:15:23.005
So

00:15:25.597 --> 00:15:26.399
You can check that out at

00:15:26.438 --> 00:15:28.799
privacyguides.org slash activism.

00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:31.822
There's some stuff in there about like how

00:15:31.841 --> 00:15:34.423
to contact your, actually, I'm not sure,

00:15:34.523 --> 00:15:35.364
it's not live yet,

00:15:35.403 --> 00:15:37.904
but there was a section in the works

00:15:37.965 --> 00:15:41.947
for contacting your data protection

00:15:41.988 --> 00:15:42.508
authority.

00:15:42.868 --> 00:15:43.869
And there's also a lot of bunch of

00:15:43.908 --> 00:15:45.090
tips on there about, you know,

00:15:46.331 --> 00:15:50.700
all sorts of things to basically build a

00:15:50.760 --> 00:15:53.667
movement behind trying to get better laws

00:15:53.726 --> 00:15:55.932
passed and stop people from

00:15:57.841 --> 00:16:00.422
you know,

00:16:00.481 --> 00:16:02.062
stop politicians from passing these

00:16:02.082 --> 00:16:02.844
terrible laws.

00:16:02.903 --> 00:16:04.644
So I think that's also important.

00:16:04.684 --> 00:16:05.044
But like,

00:16:05.264 --> 00:16:06.905
you can do multiple things at the same

00:16:06.966 --> 00:16:07.306
time.

00:16:07.346 --> 00:16:08.787
And I think that's kind of why people

00:16:08.826 --> 00:16:09.827
get kind of confused.

00:16:10.067 --> 00:16:11.649
They'll be like, oh,

00:16:11.688 --> 00:16:13.509
these laws are like always getting

00:16:13.950 --> 00:16:14.570
bypassed.

00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:15.471
They're so useless.

00:16:15.510 --> 00:16:16.530
It's like, well,

00:16:16.551 --> 00:16:17.871
there are some laws that have done

00:16:17.971 --> 00:16:18.371
something.

00:16:18.412 --> 00:16:20.634
Like we can all argue that the GDPR

00:16:20.693 --> 00:16:20.974
has

00:16:21.614 --> 00:16:22.775
had an impact, right?

00:16:22.796 --> 00:16:25.238
Like the right to delete has become a

00:16:25.317 --> 00:16:27.821
lot more common since the GDPR came around

00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:29.261
and that used to be such a pain

00:16:29.282 --> 00:16:31.244
to like delete your information from

00:16:31.283 --> 00:16:31.845
websites.

00:16:32.966 --> 00:16:34.606
And it's had an effect even outside the

00:16:34.687 --> 00:16:35.347
EU as well.

00:16:35.948 --> 00:16:37.610
So I think, you know,

00:16:37.629 --> 00:16:41.254
there's definitely examples of things that

00:16:41.293 --> 00:16:42.294
have worked pretty well.

00:16:44.565 --> 00:16:50.812
So it's just a matter of advocating for

00:16:51.272 --> 00:16:52.614
better legislation.

00:16:52.714 --> 00:16:54.375
I think it's definitely possible that

00:16:54.394 --> 00:16:56.437
there's a lot of bad stuff right now,

00:16:56.477 --> 00:16:57.958
especially with the age verification

00:16:57.999 --> 00:16:58.219
stuff.

00:16:59.591 --> 00:17:01.451
I think in large part it's just because

00:17:02.032 --> 00:17:05.973
people aren't getting riled up enough

00:17:06.013 --> 00:17:06.374
about it.

00:17:06.594 --> 00:17:08.535
I'm sure the politicians would probably

00:17:08.755 --> 00:17:11.476
change their mind if people were

00:17:12.236 --> 00:17:14.757
protesting outside parliament or outside

00:17:14.797 --> 00:17:15.856
your government buildings.

00:17:16.498 --> 00:17:19.719
So I think there's certain things we can

00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:23.980
do to sway people on it.

00:17:24.780 --> 00:17:27.541
But yeah, that's sort of my thoughts.

00:17:29.949 --> 00:17:30.209
Yeah.

00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:30.730
Agreed.

00:17:30.869 --> 00:17:31.069
It's,

00:17:31.170 --> 00:17:33.532
it's politicians are at the end of the

00:17:33.553 --> 00:17:33.712
day,

00:17:33.752 --> 00:17:35.275
we'll do whatever keeps them in power.

00:17:35.335 --> 00:17:37.136
So if something proves to be wildly

00:17:37.196 --> 00:17:37.778
unpopular,

00:17:38.338 --> 00:17:39.319
they're going to find a way to walk

00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:39.640
it back.

00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:42.022
I nine, not a hundred times.

00:17:42.282 --> 00:17:42.423
So.

00:17:43.650 --> 00:17:44.691
Um, real quick,

00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:46.071
before we move on to the next story,

00:17:46.271 --> 00:17:46.451
uh,

00:17:46.511 --> 00:17:48.314
Jonah gifted five privacy guides

00:17:48.354 --> 00:17:49.614
memberships on YouTube.

00:17:49.653 --> 00:17:51.576
So if you're on YouTube and you're kind

00:17:51.615 --> 00:17:52.777
of like listening to us in the background

00:17:52.817 --> 00:17:54.518
or something, uh, check that out.

00:17:54.738 --> 00:17:54.958
You could,

00:17:55.097 --> 00:17:56.740
you could get a free membership trial and,

00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:57.500
uh,

00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:58.921
get some early access to some upcoming

00:17:58.941 --> 00:17:59.301
videos.

00:17:59.721 --> 00:18:00.561
So thank you, Jonah.

00:18:01.962 --> 00:18:02.344
But, uh,

00:18:02.423 --> 00:18:04.125
if that's all we've got on that story,

00:18:04.905 --> 00:18:05.086
um,

00:18:05.226 --> 00:18:07.548
we're going to move and next we're going

00:18:07.587 --> 00:18:10.690
to talk about Mastodon and, um,

00:18:11.916 --> 00:18:12.576
Mastodon,

00:18:12.757 --> 00:18:14.498
I think most of our listeners probably

00:18:14.518 --> 00:18:14.678
know.

00:18:14.738 --> 00:18:15.499
I think most of you guys,

00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:16.558
or not most of you guys,

00:18:16.578 --> 00:18:18.839
but I think a lot of you are

00:18:19.661 --> 00:18:22.261
probably currently Mastodon users or have

00:18:22.362 --> 00:18:23.722
used Mastodon in the past.

00:18:24.583 --> 00:18:26.064
Let us know if you are a Mastodon

00:18:26.144 --> 00:18:26.403
user.

00:18:26.844 --> 00:18:27.704
One in the chat for yes,

00:18:27.724 --> 00:18:28.365
two for no.

00:18:28.484 --> 00:18:29.566
But in the meantime,

00:18:29.586 --> 00:18:30.746
we're going to talk about some upgrades.

00:18:30.806 --> 00:18:32.666
Mastodon got a grant from the Sovereign

00:18:32.826 --> 00:18:34.067
Tech Agency Fund.

00:18:34.307 --> 00:18:36.669
And so the Sovereign Tech Agency is

00:18:37.288 --> 00:18:38.430
something from Germany.

00:18:38.589 --> 00:18:40.391
I pulled up the Wikipedia page here.

00:18:41.111 --> 00:18:41.811
And basically,

00:18:41.892 --> 00:18:43.772
it's a part of the German federal

00:18:43.813 --> 00:18:44.334
government.

00:18:44.614 --> 00:18:46.474
It's part of their budget that aims to

00:18:46.515 --> 00:18:47.895
promote and secure open source

00:18:47.935 --> 00:18:49.116
foundational technologies.

00:18:49.436 --> 00:18:51.298
It tries to make the open source ecosystem

00:18:51.337 --> 00:18:53.160
more resilient against external attacks,

00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:54.681
thereby enhancing cybersecurity and

00:18:54.721 --> 00:18:56.402
resilience across the German economy.

00:18:56.821 --> 00:18:57.442
And so in the past,

00:18:57.462 --> 00:19:00.003
they funded things like, let's see here,

00:19:00.104 --> 00:19:02.046
Arch Linux with, oh my God,

00:19:02.185 --> 00:19:03.446
over half a million euros.

00:19:03.467 --> 00:19:04.007
That's crazy.

00:19:04.807 --> 00:19:08.830
FFmpeg, FreeBSD, GNU, GNOME.

00:19:09.730 --> 00:19:10.251
Oh, my gosh.

00:19:10.311 --> 00:19:10.892
All kinds of stuff.

00:19:10.991 --> 00:19:13.755
Open street maps, open SSH, PHP,

00:19:14.315 --> 00:19:14.996
so on and so forth.

00:19:15.036 --> 00:19:15.635
WireGuard.

00:19:15.856 --> 00:19:18.398
Yeah, really, really cool stuff there.

00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.000
So now they have donated to Mastodon.

00:19:21.020 --> 00:19:23.523
They've awarded six hundred and fourteen

00:19:23.564 --> 00:19:24.403
thousand euros

00:19:25.365 --> 00:19:26.404
And out of that total,

00:19:26.484 --> 00:19:28.125
ninety thousand has been set aside to be

00:19:28.145 --> 00:19:29.746
shared with other Fediverse projects that

00:19:29.766 --> 00:19:30.945
choose to implement the protocols

00:19:30.965 --> 00:19:31.885
developed during the work,

00:19:32.366 --> 00:19:33.307
which we are about to talk about.

00:19:33.787 --> 00:19:36.247
So we did write an article or Freya

00:19:36.386 --> 00:19:37.887
wrote an article about this for privacy

00:19:37.907 --> 00:19:39.708
guides earlier this week and focused

00:19:39.788 --> 00:19:43.888
specifically on the on the end to end

00:19:43.909 --> 00:19:44.288
encryption,

00:19:44.368 --> 00:19:45.048
which I will get to that in a

00:19:45.068 --> 00:19:45.328
moment.

00:19:45.388 --> 00:19:46.490
But there's a lot more in here,

00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:48.289
although that is certainly one of the more

00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:48.990
exciting features.

00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:51.030
So there's blockless synchronization.

00:19:51.171 --> 00:19:52.510
I know historically that's been

00:19:53.435 --> 00:19:55.618
A bit of a problem on Mastodon is

00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:56.941
moderation.

00:19:57.020 --> 00:19:58.363
A lot of people, I'm told...

00:20:00.586 --> 00:20:01.626
There's a struggle, right?

00:20:01.968 --> 00:20:03.128
And I don't want to get too philosophical

00:20:03.169 --> 00:20:03.650
right off the bat,

00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:04.872
but there's a struggle between...

00:20:07.335 --> 00:20:07.875
We want...

00:20:08.876 --> 00:20:09.636
freedom of speech.

00:20:10.217 --> 00:20:11.478
And we want people to have a space

00:20:11.498 --> 00:20:12.798
where they can say whatever they want,

00:20:13.397 --> 00:20:14.278
even if we don't agree with it.

00:20:14.898 --> 00:20:16.538
But also some people maybe just don't want

00:20:16.558 --> 00:20:17.118
to do that, right?

00:20:17.138 --> 00:20:19.180
Like someday I have days where I know

00:20:19.339 --> 00:20:20.960
I need to like not check the news,

00:20:21.520 --> 00:20:23.540
because I'm just so tired and so mentally

00:20:23.580 --> 00:20:24.121
exhausted.

00:20:24.201 --> 00:20:24.621
And I'm like, dude,

00:20:24.641 --> 00:20:25.342
I'll check it tomorrow.

00:20:25.402 --> 00:20:26.162
Now's not the time.

00:20:26.561 --> 00:20:28.102
And so I understand some people may want

00:20:28.122 --> 00:20:29.042
like an account, for example,

00:20:29.063 --> 00:20:30.182
where they can go and just not see

00:20:30.222 --> 00:20:31.303
anything political or whatever.

00:20:31.863 --> 00:20:32.923
And but the point is,

00:20:33.044 --> 00:20:34.304
it's sometimes been a challenge,

00:20:34.344 --> 00:20:35.743
especially for people who are new to like

00:20:35.804 --> 00:20:36.684
open source technology,

00:20:36.724 --> 00:20:37.424
like maybe back when

00:20:37.924 --> 00:20:39.145
Elon bought Twitter and a lot of people

00:20:39.165 --> 00:20:40.428
were checking out other alternatives.

00:20:41.729 --> 00:20:42.710
You know, some people were like,

00:20:42.970 --> 00:20:44.731
the moderation is difficult and I'm seeing

00:20:44.751 --> 00:20:46.073
a lot of stuff I don't necessarily want

00:20:46.093 --> 00:20:46.472
to see.

00:20:47.875 --> 00:20:48.575
And that's been a thing.

00:20:48.615 --> 00:20:49.695
And so now that's one of the things

00:20:49.736 --> 00:20:52.057
they're working on is enabling Mastodon

00:20:52.097 --> 00:20:53.579
server administrators to subscribe to

00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:54.461
shared block lists,

00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:56.221
which this is totally optional.

00:20:57.648 --> 00:20:59.789
I think one of these days I floated

00:20:59.829 --> 00:21:01.392
the idea of we do want to do

00:21:01.511 --> 00:21:02.553
a Mastodon tutorial,

00:21:02.573 --> 00:21:03.854
like how to self-host Mastodon,

00:21:03.933 --> 00:21:04.614
your own instance.

00:21:05.194 --> 00:21:07.477
And I definitely got the thumbs up from

00:21:07.517 --> 00:21:07.777
Jonah.

00:21:07.856 --> 00:21:09.097
We just haven't gotten around to that one

00:21:09.117 --> 00:21:09.278
yet.

00:21:09.318 --> 00:21:11.339
That one's in the works.

00:21:11.380 --> 00:21:12.280
We have a lot of great ideas for

00:21:12.320 --> 00:21:12.862
videos, but...

00:21:13.521 --> 00:21:13.761
Anyway,

00:21:13.842 --> 00:21:16.805
so that's one of them is a blockless

00:21:16.825 --> 00:21:17.464
synchronization.

00:21:18.006 --> 00:21:19.086
Remote media storage.

00:21:19.386 --> 00:21:20.708
This is more behind the scenes stuff,

00:21:20.728 --> 00:21:22.789
but it'll just make it easier for server

00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:23.589
administrators.

00:21:24.431 --> 00:21:26.132
They won't need to have quite so much

00:21:26.172 --> 00:21:26.972
storage on hand.

00:21:28.134 --> 00:21:29.855
Mastodon hasn't been too crazy for me,

00:21:29.875 --> 00:21:31.497
but also my instance is a lot smaller.

00:21:31.636 --> 00:21:33.778
So yeah.

00:21:33.798 --> 00:21:34.920
In regards to the spam thing again,

00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:36.641
they have automated content detection,

00:21:36.780 --> 00:21:38.823
which is specifically for like spam or

00:21:38.903 --> 00:21:39.824
illegal materials.

00:21:40.743 --> 00:21:40.763
I...

00:21:42.807 --> 00:21:43.708
I'll come back to that one actually.

00:21:44.388 --> 00:21:45.569
End-to-end encryption, I mentioned that.

00:21:45.630 --> 00:21:46.932
So they're going to use,

00:21:47.092 --> 00:21:49.575
I believe it was messaging layer security,

00:21:49.815 --> 00:21:51.758
MLS.

00:21:51.798 --> 00:21:53.920
I believe I read that in Fria's write-up,

00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:55.442
but I apologize if I'm wrong about that.

00:21:55.501 --> 00:21:56.343
But yeah,

00:21:56.383 --> 00:21:57.984
they're going to add end-to-end encryption

00:21:58.005 --> 00:21:58.464
to DMs,

00:21:58.484 --> 00:21:59.666
which is great because that has

00:21:59.727 --> 00:22:00.468
historically been

00:22:02.086 --> 00:22:03.807
one of the negatives of mastodon is the

00:22:03.846 --> 00:22:06.528
dms are not encrypted and a uh an

00:22:06.568 --> 00:22:07.769
administrator could still look at your

00:22:07.809 --> 00:22:09.451
messages if they really wanted to they're

00:22:09.471 --> 00:22:11.571
going to improve the documentation and i

00:22:11.592 --> 00:22:12.873
believe they said they're trying to get

00:22:12.932 --> 00:22:14.053
most of this stuff done by the end

00:22:14.073 --> 00:22:15.693
of the year and then again there's that

00:22:15.753 --> 00:22:17.095
ninety thousand that's bookmarked to help

00:22:17.174 --> 00:22:19.376
other instances or other projects that

00:22:19.416 --> 00:22:21.597
want to take advantage of this so maybe

00:22:21.637 --> 00:22:23.058
someday we'll see end-to-end encryption

00:22:23.098 --> 00:22:25.119
between like mastodon and pixel fed for

00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:26.560
example or something like that so

00:22:27.458 --> 00:22:28.358
I think that's super cool.

00:22:29.881 --> 00:22:31.082
The last thing I wanted to add is

00:22:31.382 --> 00:22:32.762
this automated content detection.

00:22:32.963 --> 00:22:34.305
I could see the argument,

00:22:34.525 --> 00:22:35.445
and this is just me kind of thinking

00:22:35.486 --> 00:22:35.826
out loud.

00:22:35.926 --> 00:22:36.907
I could see the argument where like,

00:22:37.288 --> 00:22:38.548
we're not usually fans of this, right?

00:22:38.588 --> 00:22:40.330
Because how long does it take?

00:22:40.351 --> 00:22:40.550
You know,

00:22:40.570 --> 00:22:42.532
maybe illegal material for now means like,

00:22:43.354 --> 00:22:44.054
Um,

00:22:44.074 --> 00:22:46.055
child abuse material or like in Iceland,

00:22:46.115 --> 00:22:47.355
I found out in Iceland,

00:22:47.394 --> 00:22:48.954
technically adult material is illegal.

00:22:49.095 --> 00:22:50.355
I don't think anybody actually enforces

00:22:50.415 --> 00:22:50.496
it,

00:22:50.915 --> 00:22:51.756
but let's say you wanted to err on

00:22:51.776 --> 00:22:53.816
the soft side or err on the side

00:22:53.855 --> 00:22:55.916
of caution and say like,

00:22:56.017 --> 00:22:57.517
I just want to block anything that's

00:22:57.676 --> 00:22:58.416
adult, right?

00:22:58.517 --> 00:22:59.657
You, you could use this for that.

00:23:00.278 --> 00:23:01.117
I could see how it could get a

00:23:01.137 --> 00:23:02.857
little bit tricky if there starts to be

00:23:02.897 --> 00:23:05.098
some kind of pressure to scan for, um,

00:23:05.355 --> 00:23:07.137
protests or something more political,

00:23:07.557 --> 00:23:08.439
but also at the same time,

00:23:08.499 --> 00:23:09.619
that's one of the beauties of things like

00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:10.279
Mastodon, right?

00:23:10.339 --> 00:23:11.421
Is if you start to feel like this

00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:12.902
instance is getting a little bit too

00:23:12.961 --> 00:23:14.624
heavily moderated in a way I don't like,

00:23:15.124 --> 00:23:16.424
you can move to another instance or you

00:23:16.444 --> 00:23:17.707
can self-host your own instance.

00:23:17.747 --> 00:23:19.748
So I think that's definitely one of our

00:23:19.768 --> 00:23:21.670
favorite things about the Fediverse.

00:23:22.931 --> 00:23:23.310
Jordan,

00:23:23.371 --> 00:23:24.972
was there anything in this announcement

00:23:25.212 --> 00:23:27.114
that you jumped out that caught your

00:23:27.134 --> 00:23:29.016
attention or you thought was interesting

00:23:29.076 --> 00:23:29.856
or wanted to talk about?

00:23:31.855 --> 00:23:32.217
Um, yeah,

00:23:32.277 --> 00:23:35.138
I think the block list synchronization

00:23:35.179 --> 00:23:37.861
thing is definitely going to be somewhat

00:23:37.901 --> 00:23:38.721
controversial.

00:23:38.761 --> 00:23:41.203
Like you said, like there was,

00:23:41.243 --> 00:23:43.125
I think I've talked to people about this

00:23:43.365 --> 00:23:44.886
a decent amount, but like, you know,

00:23:45.607 --> 00:23:47.349
people kind of get frustrated that there's

00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:51.353
almost like censorship in quotations of

00:23:51.432 --> 00:23:53.434
like, you know, certain people, um,

00:23:56.104 --> 00:23:58.688
And I think that, you know,

00:23:58.988 --> 00:23:59.789
a lot of times,

00:24:00.150 --> 00:24:02.173
maybe sometimes that can be the case,

00:24:02.292 --> 00:24:04.215
but I think the biggest thing here is

00:24:04.957 --> 00:24:05.136
the.

00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:10.682
um, you know, uh, the, the,

00:24:10.741 --> 00:24:12.742
the small server operators who don't have

00:24:12.762 --> 00:24:13.303
a lot of time.

00:24:13.323 --> 00:24:14.583
So maybe, you know,

00:24:14.702 --> 00:24:16.104
like I know you run your own master

00:24:16.223 --> 00:24:16.804
on instance,

00:24:16.864 --> 00:24:18.684
I'm sure that can sometimes be kind of

00:24:18.724 --> 00:24:20.884
frustrating to see, like, you know,

00:24:20.964 --> 00:24:23.266
CSAM and like awful stuff popping up.

00:24:23.566 --> 00:24:25.165
Um, because, you know,

00:24:25.365 --> 00:24:27.527
a lot of administrators are basically

00:24:27.567 --> 00:24:29.147
having to take care of that themselves.

00:24:29.567 --> 00:24:31.968
Um, so, you know,

00:24:31.988 --> 00:24:33.769
kind of offloading that a little bit to,

00:24:35.384 --> 00:24:37.526
allow that to be a sort of community-based

00:24:37.605 --> 00:24:40.907
effort is a decent way to go,

00:24:40.948 --> 00:24:41.327
I think.

00:24:42.929 --> 00:24:43.729
But I think, you know,

00:24:43.749 --> 00:24:44.789
some people are still going to have a

00:24:44.829 --> 00:24:46.651
problem with this because, you know,

00:24:46.931 --> 00:24:48.932
it can kind of make things become a

00:24:48.971 --> 00:24:50.712
bit like group-thinky, I guess,

00:24:51.272 --> 00:24:52.374
where everyone is sort of

00:24:53.990 --> 00:24:55.551
blocking people based on,

00:24:57.113 --> 00:24:58.594
I know it's not very common,

00:24:58.634 --> 00:25:00.214
but there are a couple of instances that

00:25:00.234 --> 00:25:01.795
have just like de-federated with other

00:25:01.894 --> 00:25:03.155
ones because of, you know,

00:25:03.556 --> 00:25:05.037
beef that they have with each other,

00:25:05.416 --> 00:25:06.798
which is, you know,

00:25:07.117 --> 00:25:08.259
it happens on every platform.

00:25:08.298 --> 00:25:09.539
I think people are like that.

00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:11.240
So I don't think it's really,

00:25:12.696 --> 00:25:14.557
an issue with Mastodon specifically,

00:25:15.179 --> 00:25:17.380
but I do think it's still in a

00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.840
better spot because even if you find that

00:25:19.861 --> 00:25:20.461
to be an issue,

00:25:20.481 --> 00:25:22.623
you can start your own instance or you

00:25:22.643 --> 00:25:27.365
can just join one that doesn't have those

00:25:28.067 --> 00:25:28.747
restrictions.

00:25:28.787 --> 00:25:30.327
But I do think it could be better

00:25:30.367 --> 00:25:34.009
to make it more obvious what information

00:25:34.109 --> 00:25:35.810
is being blocked to users of your

00:25:35.891 --> 00:25:36.392
instance,

00:25:36.451 --> 00:25:38.792
because a lot of times it's not exactly

00:25:38.853 --> 00:25:39.153
clear

00:25:40.213 --> 00:25:45.478
what block list, I mean,

00:25:45.698 --> 00:25:47.179
I hope it's clear once this gets

00:25:47.219 --> 00:25:47.720
implemented,

00:25:47.779 --> 00:25:50.442
but also just like being able to see

00:25:50.541 --> 00:25:53.002
what is actually blocked by the server so

00:25:53.022 --> 00:25:54.483
you can make a better choice if you

00:25:55.224 --> 00:25:56.925
prefer to join a server that doesn't have

00:25:56.965 --> 00:25:58.086
as many blocked things.

00:26:00.269 --> 00:26:01.809
But yeah, all the other stuff seems

00:26:03.148 --> 00:26:05.632
reasonably interesting i think i'm not

00:26:05.652 --> 00:26:07.334
really a big fan of like the automated

00:26:07.374 --> 00:26:13.300
content detection but i think i guess it's

00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:15.542
kind of needed once the network gets to

00:26:15.583 --> 00:26:16.904
a certain point do you have any thoughts

00:26:18.342 --> 00:26:18.561
Yeah,

00:26:18.642 --> 00:26:20.565
I think the automated detection thing,

00:26:20.664 --> 00:26:21.786
I think it's a blessing and a curse

00:26:21.806 --> 00:26:22.666
because like I said,

00:26:22.807 --> 00:26:24.048
there is the one argument of like,

00:26:24.068 --> 00:26:25.171
this is the same thing that we would

00:26:25.191 --> 00:26:27.212
criticize like Apple or Google for, right?

00:26:27.673 --> 00:26:28.414
But at the same time,

00:26:28.474 --> 00:26:30.037
I think historically,

00:26:30.176 --> 00:26:32.680
Mastodon has had a huge problem with spam.

00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.079
And...

00:26:34.228 --> 00:26:35.148
a lot of that, I mean, this is,

00:26:35.388 --> 00:26:35.588
there's,

00:26:35.828 --> 00:26:38.049
there's pros and cons to decentralization.

00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:38.330
Right.

00:26:38.411 --> 00:26:39.931
And that's one of the cons is like

00:26:40.291 --> 00:26:42.012
their entire servers out there that are

00:26:42.032 --> 00:26:44.074
just like abandoned.

00:26:44.433 --> 00:26:44.594
Like,

00:26:44.634 --> 00:26:45.674
I don't know why the owners are still

00:26:45.694 --> 00:26:46.575
paying for server space,

00:26:46.595 --> 00:26:47.395
but apparently they are.

00:26:47.836 --> 00:26:49.156
And they've got open registration and,

00:26:49.656 --> 00:26:51.096
And I've seen this happen a few times.

00:26:51.116 --> 00:26:52.778
I've been on Mastodon long enough that

00:26:52.798 --> 00:26:54.038
I've seen this happen more than once,

00:26:54.478 --> 00:26:55.637
where for some reason,

00:26:56.919 --> 00:26:58.538
a whole bunch of bots will just go

00:26:58.578 --> 00:27:00.838
and join this one instance that's like six

00:27:00.858 --> 00:27:02.599
versions out of date.

00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:04.420
The admin is clearly checked out five

00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.861
years ago and registrations are still

00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:07.240
open.

00:27:07.381 --> 00:27:08.240
And so everybody,

00:27:09.280 --> 00:27:10.661
they send their bots and the bots start

00:27:10.701 --> 00:27:12.342
harassing everybody and posting spam.

00:27:12.362 --> 00:27:13.741
And usually it's in another language and

00:27:13.761 --> 00:27:13.981
it's like,

00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.520
links to gambling sites or another common

00:27:17.560 --> 00:27:18.320
one that goes around is like,

00:27:18.361 --> 00:27:19.560
this is Mastodon support.

00:27:19.661 --> 00:27:21.281
You need to verify your profile,

00:27:21.301 --> 00:27:24.143
which I hope most Mastodon users are too

00:27:24.163 --> 00:27:25.123
tech savvy to fall for that.

00:27:25.482 --> 00:27:26.083
But at the same time,

00:27:27.223 --> 00:27:28.144
I think there's a,

00:27:30.003 --> 00:27:31.025
not to get too in the weeds here,

00:27:31.045 --> 00:27:33.244
but I think any sort of a platform

00:27:33.305 --> 00:27:36.645
needs to have a philosophical question of

00:27:36.685 --> 00:27:37.566
what's their end goal.

00:27:37.605 --> 00:27:39.086
Because I think if your goal is to

00:27:39.126 --> 00:27:39.707
be like, oh,

00:27:39.826 --> 00:27:41.287
all of our users are too tech savvy

00:27:41.307 --> 00:27:41.627
for that.

00:27:41.647 --> 00:27:42.587
They're not gonna fall for that.

00:27:43.584 --> 00:27:45.765
Then you don't really need to worry about

00:27:45.964 --> 00:27:46.986
weeding out the spam, right?

00:27:47.066 --> 00:27:48.366
Like at this point, it's buyer beware.

00:27:48.386 --> 00:27:49.827
You're expecting your users to have that

00:27:49.867 --> 00:27:51.449
level of tech savviness.

00:27:52.088 --> 00:27:54.589
But if you want something to be,

00:27:54.609 --> 00:27:57.152
what's the word I'm looking for?

00:27:58.499 --> 00:28:00.019
If you want something to be accessible to

00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.840
everyone and to gain mainstream traction,

00:28:03.320 --> 00:28:04.481
then these are the things you have to

00:28:04.501 --> 00:28:04.942
think about.

00:28:05.162 --> 00:28:08.423
And so I would certainly appreciate some

00:28:08.463 --> 00:28:09.703
better moderation tools.

00:28:10.084 --> 00:28:12.065
I have my instance set to approval.

00:28:12.285 --> 00:28:13.266
I have to approve everyone.

00:28:13.766 --> 00:28:14.346
I usually do,

00:28:14.465 --> 00:28:15.666
unless I think it's an AI bot,

00:28:15.686 --> 00:28:16.967
which they're usually pretty easy to spot.

00:28:17.027 --> 00:28:18.567
But if you're a real user,

00:28:18.708 --> 00:28:19.949
I don't care why you're here.

00:28:21.189 --> 00:28:21.970
But I think...

00:28:23.907 --> 00:28:25.588
I can't help it when other people are

00:28:25.628 --> 00:28:26.388
spamming, right?

00:28:26.528 --> 00:28:26.989
And, you know,

00:28:27.009 --> 00:28:29.150
I can't be on Mastodon to manage that.

00:28:29.190 --> 00:28:30.910
So it is kind of annoying.

00:28:33.090 --> 00:28:33.891
Yeah, I don't know.

00:28:34.211 --> 00:28:35.111
It's got pros and cons.

00:28:35.151 --> 00:28:35.932
Although again, like I said,

00:28:35.951 --> 00:28:36.392
with the whole,

00:28:36.451 --> 00:28:37.751
we would criticize Apple and Google for

00:28:37.771 --> 00:28:39.311
this, Mastodon's decentralized.

00:28:39.332 --> 00:28:39.593
You know,

00:28:40.012 --> 00:28:41.692
the US government could theoretically come

00:28:41.712 --> 00:28:42.792
up to me and be like, hey,

00:28:42.813 --> 00:28:45.134
you need to start blocking, I don't know,

00:28:45.294 --> 00:28:47.555
anything from anything in Arabic because

00:28:47.575 --> 00:28:48.994
we're beefing with Iran right now, right?

00:28:49.535 --> 00:28:51.796
But alternately, if you're,

00:28:53.423 --> 00:28:54.846
if you're a German instance,

00:28:54.885 --> 00:28:56.107
like the U S government has no power

00:28:56.167 --> 00:28:56.488
over you.

00:28:56.548 --> 00:28:56.929
So it doesn't,

00:28:57.470 --> 00:28:58.191
I wouldn't go so far as to say

00:28:58.211 --> 00:28:59.113
it doesn't matter, but it's,

00:28:59.512 --> 00:29:00.795
it's a lot harder for that kind of

00:29:00.835 --> 00:29:02.337
censorship to like really take hold,

00:29:02.357 --> 00:29:03.920
which I think is,

00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:04.862
is an advantage for sure.

00:29:05.061 --> 00:29:05.262
But,

00:29:06.282 --> 00:29:06.623
Yeah.

00:29:06.663 --> 00:29:06.923
And then I've,

00:29:07.104 --> 00:29:08.365
I've also got thoughts on the free speech

00:29:08.384 --> 00:29:09.786
thing, to be honest, but I'll just,

00:29:09.926 --> 00:29:10.507
I'll leave that there.

00:29:10.747 --> 00:29:12.709
Um, like you said, the advantages,

00:29:12.729 --> 00:29:14.250
you can always just go start your own

00:29:14.270 --> 00:29:14.471
instant,

00:29:14.490 --> 00:29:15.652
which Mastodon is one of the more

00:29:15.751 --> 00:29:17.133
user-friendly things that I've looked into

00:29:17.173 --> 00:29:17.453
hosting.

00:29:17.473 --> 00:29:18.094
It's certainly not,

00:29:18.555 --> 00:29:19.855
I wouldn't describe it as like your first

00:29:19.895 --> 00:29:20.316
project.

00:29:20.395 --> 00:29:22.057
I think there's definitely easier things,

00:29:22.117 --> 00:29:24.440
but it's easier than next cloud for sure.

00:29:24.539 --> 00:29:26.001
Um, it's,

00:29:26.082 --> 00:29:27.482
it's definitely easier than a lot of

00:29:27.522 --> 00:29:29.125
other, um,

00:29:29.184 --> 00:29:31.267
a lot of other projects in my opinion.

00:29:31.307 --> 00:29:31.386
So

00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:32.721
Yeah,

00:29:32.760 --> 00:29:34.161
and I do think it is good with

00:29:34.221 --> 00:29:36.501
Mastodon because if you disagree with any

00:29:36.521 --> 00:29:37.041
of these things,

00:29:37.061 --> 00:29:38.801
like if you don't agree with blockless

00:29:38.842 --> 00:29:41.222
synchronization, that's fine.

00:29:41.482 --> 00:29:43.182
You can use like any other Fediverse

00:29:44.663 --> 00:29:45.282
system, right?

00:29:45.323 --> 00:29:47.124
There's loads of other ones you can use.

00:29:48.423 --> 00:29:49.703
You don't have to use Mastodon.

00:29:50.084 --> 00:29:52.785
I just think it's the most popular or

00:29:52.904 --> 00:29:54.105
one of the most popular, I guess.

00:29:54.125 --> 00:29:56.945
I think so, yeah.

00:29:56.986 --> 00:29:58.365
So that's kind of why it has...

00:29:59.980 --> 00:30:03.703
most features it's the most feature rich i

00:30:03.743 --> 00:30:05.644
guess and this is just kind of adding

00:30:05.684 --> 00:30:07.385
to that um it is interesting here i

00:30:07.425 --> 00:30:10.048
did notice the timeline for the end-to-end

00:30:10.087 --> 00:30:12.128
encryption for private messages is twenty

00:30:12.148 --> 00:30:15.070
twenty seven and i just think you know

00:30:16.192 --> 00:30:18.232
we're gonna be on the side of don't

00:30:18.333 --> 00:30:20.994
use that so we don't really want that

00:30:21.214 --> 00:30:22.536
but like i mean i don't really think

00:30:22.556 --> 00:30:24.678
that's that important i think you know if

00:30:24.718 --> 00:30:27.219
you people already i already see people

00:30:27.239 --> 00:30:28.859
doing this on maston but they link their

00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:29.540
signal account

00:30:30.102 --> 00:30:34.210
We would suggest that much more than going

00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:36.054
and using end-to-end encrypted private

00:30:36.094 --> 00:30:36.575
messages.

00:30:38.685 --> 00:30:38.925
Yeah,

00:30:39.026 --> 00:30:41.067
I think actually somebody here did

00:30:41.487 --> 00:30:44.367
mention, yeah, on YouTube,

00:30:44.428 --> 00:30:45.827
Seismic said finally,

00:30:45.907 --> 00:30:49.049
and chat besides Signal that I can use.

00:30:49.450 --> 00:30:49.569
I mean,

00:30:49.589 --> 00:30:50.509
we're going to have to wait and see

00:30:50.549 --> 00:30:52.070
what this looks like in the final version.

00:30:52.691 --> 00:30:54.191
I highly doubt it's going to be something

00:30:54.211 --> 00:30:56.892
that we would recommend over Signal or

00:30:56.951 --> 00:30:58.192
even alongside Signal.

00:30:58.593 --> 00:30:59.952
But I always think it's great to have

00:31:00.073 --> 00:31:01.614
more protection wherever possible.

00:31:01.673 --> 00:31:02.874
And I think it is really good that,

00:31:03.173 --> 00:31:04.154
because, you know, there may be,

00:31:05.426 --> 00:31:06.848
times that I want to message somebody.

00:31:06.909 --> 00:31:08.049
And especially in, you know,

00:31:08.089 --> 00:31:09.811
one of the problems that a lot of

00:31:09.832 --> 00:31:10.633
these, uh,

00:31:10.673 --> 00:31:12.375
decentralized services have is there tend

00:31:12.394 --> 00:31:13.796
to be like one or two or a

00:31:13.836 --> 00:31:16.538
handful of servers that get like a massive

00:31:16.558 --> 00:31:17.319
amount of users.

00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:20.123
And so it's a lot of people criticize,

00:31:20.143 --> 00:31:20.482
they're like, well,

00:31:20.502 --> 00:31:21.904
it's not really decentralized because

00:31:21.924 --> 00:31:22.885
everyone's using that server.

00:31:23.486 --> 00:31:25.406
Um, but regardless, you know,

00:31:25.487 --> 00:31:26.067
it's still like,

00:31:26.748 --> 00:31:27.769
if you're talking to somebody,

00:31:27.868 --> 00:31:29.430
like if I message somebody,

00:31:29.549 --> 00:31:30.450
there's a good chance they're going to be

00:31:30.490 --> 00:31:31.631
on like the mastodon dot social.

00:31:31.691 --> 00:31:31.931
Right.

00:31:32.530 --> 00:31:34.893
And so maybe I'm comfortable telling that

00:31:34.932 --> 00:31:36.374
person like my date of birth.

00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:38.371
but I don't want to tell everybody.

00:31:38.510 --> 00:31:39.672
And I don't know who the admin is.

00:31:39.692 --> 00:31:40.932
And I don't necessarily know if I trust

00:31:40.972 --> 00:31:42.413
the admin and, and, you know,

00:31:42.473 --> 00:31:43.996
some Mastodon instances even have like an

00:31:44.115 --> 00:31:45.596
admin account where there may be more than

00:31:45.676 --> 00:31:46.877
one person that has access to it.

00:31:47.337 --> 00:31:48.618
So I think it is really good that

00:31:48.638 --> 00:31:49.961
they're adding this level of privacy,

00:31:50.020 --> 00:31:50.701
but yeah, I don't,

00:31:52.061 --> 00:31:53.343
I doubt it's going to be implemented in

00:31:53.363 --> 00:31:55.105
a way where we're like, well, shoot,

00:31:55.144 --> 00:31:56.266
this is just as good as signal.

00:31:56.306 --> 00:31:57.686
Everybody just use that, you know,

00:31:57.747 --> 00:31:59.428
but it's still nice to have that extra

00:31:59.468 --> 00:32:00.970
layer of protection for sure.

00:32:01.009 --> 00:32:03.271
So yeah, that is a long ways off.

00:32:03.451 --> 00:32:03.571
So

00:32:04.085 --> 00:32:04.525
Definitely.

00:32:04.605 --> 00:32:06.105
I think, yeah, you're right.

00:32:06.566 --> 00:32:08.287
I think it is important, like you said,

00:32:08.307 --> 00:32:12.108
to have more than just have everything be

00:32:12.148 --> 00:32:14.109
have some level of protection rather than

00:32:14.611 --> 00:32:14.971
nothing.

00:32:15.010 --> 00:32:15.550
Right.

00:32:15.590 --> 00:32:17.311
Definitely agree.

00:32:19.073 --> 00:32:21.974
And I also saw real quick, somebody asked,

00:32:22.035 --> 00:32:23.174
why are people chatting numbers?

00:32:23.434 --> 00:32:24.276
We were running a poll.

00:32:24.915 --> 00:32:26.277
I think it got moved off when I

00:32:26.396 --> 00:32:27.237
started showing comments,

00:32:27.257 --> 00:32:28.317
but we were running a poll about

00:32:30.737 --> 00:32:32.057
if you were a Mastodon user or not.

00:32:32.077 --> 00:32:33.499
And so you would comment in the chat,

00:32:33.618 --> 00:32:34.700
one for yes and two for no.

00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:37.182
But we'll try another poll in the future.

00:32:37.521 --> 00:32:39.064
So I think for now,

00:32:39.683 --> 00:32:40.845
that's all I've got on that story,

00:32:40.865 --> 00:32:42.546
if we want to move on to the

00:32:42.586 --> 00:32:44.387
next one, unless you have final thoughts.

00:32:44.973 --> 00:32:45.334
Awesome.

00:32:45.453 --> 00:32:46.034
Yeah, no,

00:32:46.173 --> 00:32:48.174
I think we kind of talked about that

00:32:48.234 --> 00:32:49.075
quite thoroughly here.

00:32:49.134 --> 00:32:50.615
So let's move on to the next story

00:32:50.655 --> 00:32:50.855
here.

00:32:51.435 --> 00:32:53.876
And this one has been kind of a

00:32:53.896 --> 00:32:55.017
hot story this week.

00:32:56.156 --> 00:32:59.278
Cal.com is going closed source.

00:32:59.817 --> 00:33:00.459
Here's why.

00:33:01.038 --> 00:33:03.179
So I guess first, you know,

00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:04.720
I think a lot of people in our

00:33:04.779 --> 00:33:06.420
audience may not be familiar with this if

00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:07.661
they're not really into like

00:33:08.901 --> 00:33:10.622
uh, meeting scheduling,

00:33:10.821 --> 00:33:13.083
self-hosting meeting scheduling sort of

00:33:13.103 --> 00:33:13.462
stuff.

00:33:13.482 --> 00:33:16.644
So basically cal.com was, uh, well,

00:33:16.824 --> 00:33:17.964
it is still a thing, right?

00:33:18.144 --> 00:33:19.505
Um,

00:33:19.525 --> 00:33:21.145
there's basically a way to organize

00:33:21.205 --> 00:33:22.326
meeting times with people.

00:33:22.507 --> 00:33:25.127
So you could send someone a link and

00:33:25.387 --> 00:33:27.269
it would have your availabilities.

00:33:27.388 --> 00:33:29.229
And then the other person could select the

00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:31.750
time that works best for them, which,

00:33:31.789 --> 00:33:32.090
you know,

00:33:34.383 --> 00:33:34.804
Personally,

00:33:34.903 --> 00:33:37.326
I've had to do that because we communicate

00:33:38.327 --> 00:33:39.548
across time zones now.

00:33:39.608 --> 00:33:41.372
This is like a global economy.

00:33:41.511 --> 00:33:45.876
So people have to sort of find the

00:33:45.896 --> 00:33:46.478
best time.

00:33:46.936 --> 00:33:49.680
And that is oftentimes across different

00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:50.260
time zones.

00:33:52.583 --> 00:33:52.843
So, um, the,

00:33:54.424 --> 00:33:57.248
the thing here with cow.com is they have

00:33:57.307 --> 00:33:59.750
decided to move to going closed source.

00:33:59.790 --> 00:34:01.712
So originally there was a,

00:34:01.732 --> 00:34:03.233
they had a self hosted version.

00:34:03.413 --> 00:34:05.896
And I think the whole thing with that

00:34:05.916 --> 00:34:09.581
was that it was a full, uh,

00:34:11.362 --> 00:34:13.704
it was a full open source version of

00:34:13.744 --> 00:34:14.826
their, uh,

00:34:15.306 --> 00:34:17.246
service that you could self host yourself.

00:34:18.007 --> 00:34:20.389
And basically they've announced that they

00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:23.831
are diverging from that project.

00:34:24.393 --> 00:34:25.873
And they have been for some time now

00:34:26.074 --> 00:34:28.615
they've actually been working on a closed

00:34:28.655 --> 00:34:29.376
source version.

00:34:29.916 --> 00:34:30.016
Um,

00:34:30.056 --> 00:34:31.297
and that's the version that runs on

00:34:31.378 --> 00:34:34.800
cal.com and they have introduced a new

00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:37.922
service, which is cal.diy, which is,

00:34:39.130 --> 00:34:41.871
self-hosted version and i do want to talk

00:34:41.891 --> 00:34:43.532
a little bit about that but first let's

00:34:43.552 --> 00:34:45.313
kind of talk about the reasoning behind

00:34:45.693 --> 00:34:50.594
going to this closed source model so they

00:34:50.634 --> 00:34:54.815
posted a video here um saying that ai

00:34:54.875 --> 00:34:56.815
is killing open source stating that you

00:34:56.835 --> 00:34:59.675
know open source vulnerability scanners

00:34:59.896 --> 00:35:02.077
are basically making it really hard to

00:35:03.563 --> 00:35:06.065
keep up with patching vulnerabilities

00:35:06.126 --> 00:35:06.927
because, you know,

00:35:07.166 --> 00:35:09.449
they're able to scan the software and find

00:35:09.489 --> 00:35:11.489
vulnerabilities much easier than spending

00:35:11.550 --> 00:35:14.972
hours and hours as a, you know,

00:35:15.032 --> 00:35:17.914
professional hacker or whatever, you know,

00:35:17.936 --> 00:35:19.516
like a threat actor,

00:35:19.637 --> 00:35:20.617
a proper threat actor.

00:35:20.637 --> 00:35:22.418
They can kind of find these

00:35:22.438 --> 00:35:23.500
vulnerabilities without

00:35:25.748 --> 00:35:27.771
Being that technical is what I'm trying to

00:35:27.791 --> 00:35:28.932
say.

00:35:28.992 --> 00:35:30.715
So basically that's kind of their

00:35:30.755 --> 00:35:31.615
reasoning behind this.

00:35:32.215 --> 00:35:33.677
Their reasoning for moving to closed

00:35:33.697 --> 00:35:34.898
source is security.

00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:37.461
And I think that's kind of where we

00:35:37.521 --> 00:35:39.364
kind of fundamentally disagree with this

00:35:39.463 --> 00:35:42.126
because I think the source model of your

00:35:42.166 --> 00:35:44.789
software doesn't actually have an impact

00:35:44.969 --> 00:35:45.990
on security, right?

00:35:48.487 --> 00:35:51.311
There's still ways to, you know,

00:35:51.652 --> 00:35:54.295
analyze software that is closed source.

00:35:54.315 --> 00:35:55.818
There's still ways to, you know,

00:35:57.079 --> 00:35:58.601
test software, crash software,

00:35:58.641 --> 00:35:59.784
find vulnerabilities.

00:36:01.246 --> 00:36:03.489
So that's an interesting take.

00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:04.411
I think

00:36:06.773 --> 00:36:09.014
One thing that Jonah brought up, you know,

00:36:09.313 --> 00:36:11.014
we have like a staff group chat,

00:36:11.054 --> 00:36:14.396
he brought up that the cal.diy project

00:36:14.496 --> 00:36:16.117
looks kind of sus.

00:36:17.217 --> 00:36:19.677
If you go to the website cal.diy,

00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:24.039
there is actually a lot of warnings all

00:36:24.099 --> 00:36:24.719
over the page,

00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:28.041
which kind of makes it seem like they

00:36:28.141 --> 00:36:30.322
may not be following,

00:36:30.742 --> 00:36:32.324
they may not really be updating this.

00:36:32.423 --> 00:36:34.304
This seems like, you know,

00:36:34.324 --> 00:36:35.445
something that is sort of

00:36:37.514 --> 00:36:37.795
risk,

00:36:37.875 --> 00:36:39.315
they're kind of making it seem like it's

00:36:39.375 --> 00:36:40.735
extremely risky to use.

00:36:41.436 --> 00:36:44.255
Um, so this is kind of strange.

00:36:44.376 --> 00:36:44.797
I think, uh,

00:36:45.637 --> 00:36:49.077
I don't really know why they're have such

00:36:49.097 --> 00:36:51.378
a large warning on like every single page

00:36:51.478 --> 00:36:54.739
or like at the top of the introduction

00:36:54.778 --> 00:36:56.699
page, um, saying use it.

00:36:56.719 --> 00:36:58.798
Your own risk is open source community

00:36:58.838 --> 00:37:01.639
edition and is tended for users who want

00:37:01.659 --> 00:37:04.001
to self host their own CalDIY instance.

00:37:04.081 --> 00:37:06.021
It's strictly recommended for personal.

00:37:06.596 --> 00:37:09.097
non-production use please review all

00:37:09.137 --> 00:37:11.498
installation blah blah blah like it's it's

00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:16.362
quite um strange uh and it says um

00:37:16.382 --> 00:37:18.063
below that there's like an ad for their

00:37:18.523 --> 00:37:20.764
um for their commercial service which is

00:37:20.965 --> 00:37:24.987
closed source now um so you know we

00:37:25.007 --> 00:37:26.128
we've always kind of been

00:37:28.190 --> 00:37:29.512
are saying that, you know,

00:37:30.534 --> 00:37:32.777
there's the source model I don't think has

00:37:32.797 --> 00:37:34.699
an impact on the privacy or security.

00:37:34.998 --> 00:37:36.300
And yeah,

00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:37.762
like Jonah said in the chat here,

00:37:38.623 --> 00:37:41.286
literally fearmongering about open source

00:37:41.367 --> 00:37:41.748
actually.

00:37:42.007 --> 00:37:43.690
Like this is like the silly arguments that

00:37:43.710 --> 00:37:45.652
we hear from like people who don't really

00:37:45.692 --> 00:37:46.813
know what they're talking about and who

00:37:46.853 --> 00:37:47.253
say like,

00:37:48.054 --> 00:37:50.215
open source that's like so much worse

00:37:50.235 --> 00:37:51.576
because like then everyone can see the

00:37:51.615 --> 00:37:53.615
code and like hack you it's just like

00:37:54.396 --> 00:37:55.896
not really it just it just means there's

00:37:55.916 --> 00:37:59.277
more scrutiny um and i think you know

00:37:59.478 --> 00:38:01.619
it doesn't really make that much sense um

00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.438
to do this it's we kind of talked

00:38:04.458 --> 00:38:05.880
about this a little bit in our group

00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:09.300
chat but the the the this company itself

00:38:09.340 --> 00:38:12.380
cal.com is venture capital backed and

00:38:12.681 --> 00:38:14.481
basically what that means is there's

00:38:14.501 --> 00:38:14.981
people who

00:38:16.610 --> 00:38:19.192
invest money in the company to, you know,

00:38:19.211 --> 00:38:20.853
gain a stake in the company, I guess.

00:38:21.514 --> 00:38:23.576
And they want to be able to earn

00:38:24.157 --> 00:38:26.458
a return on that money that they've

00:38:26.498 --> 00:38:26.978
invested.

00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:29.280
And in a lot of cases, you know,

00:38:29.380 --> 00:38:33.304
open source software opens the company up

00:38:33.324 --> 00:38:35.726
to having their ideas and direction

00:38:36.547 --> 00:38:38.608
possibly copied by a competitor or to

00:38:38.628 --> 00:38:40.411
allow insights into their company from a

00:38:40.471 --> 00:38:41.010
competitor.

00:38:41.911 --> 00:38:42.592
And I think,

00:38:44.351 --> 00:38:46.434
This is kind of a little bit silly.

00:38:46.574 --> 00:38:47.775
I think, you know,

00:38:47.815 --> 00:38:49.255
if you're making a really good product,

00:38:49.356 --> 00:38:52.018
which I think cal.com is making a really

00:38:52.038 --> 00:38:52.617
good product,

00:38:53.798 --> 00:38:57.422
then you shouldn't be concerned about

00:38:57.481 --> 00:38:58.963
someone stealing your ideas.

00:38:58.983 --> 00:38:59.784
Like I'm,

00:38:59.804 --> 00:39:01.844
I'm kind of not very familiar of that

00:39:01.905 --> 00:39:02.766
ever being the case.

00:39:03.085 --> 00:39:04.827
Um, I think it keeps the,

00:39:05.068 --> 00:39:06.588
it keeps your company kind of, uh,

00:39:09.739 --> 00:39:11.181
You don't even like you can have an

00:39:11.282 --> 00:39:13.425
open source license that doesn't allow

00:39:13.465 --> 00:39:15.106
people to use it for commercial use.

00:39:15.847 --> 00:39:17.510
You can still have the software be open

00:39:17.570 --> 00:39:17.971
source.

00:39:18.110 --> 00:39:19.733
You can have the source available source

00:39:19.753 --> 00:39:19.994
code.

00:39:20.715 --> 00:39:22.777
So that's why I'm kind of confused by

00:39:22.838 --> 00:39:23.038
this.

00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:27.862
this move here but I did want to

00:39:28.282 --> 00:39:30.304
hand it over here to Nate because there

00:39:30.324 --> 00:39:32.786
was actually a bit of a clap back

00:39:32.827 --> 00:39:35.208
here from discourse which is basically the

00:39:35.248 --> 00:39:36.990
forum software that we use for our forum

00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:39.032
but I'll just hand it over to Nate

00:39:39.072 --> 00:39:40.693
here to kind of tackle that

00:39:42.088 --> 00:39:42.648
Sure.

00:39:43.068 --> 00:39:43.949
Um, yeah.

00:39:44.070 --> 00:39:46.152
So quick shout out to our forum,

00:39:46.233 --> 00:39:48.516
discuss stop privacy guides.net.

00:39:48.815 --> 00:39:50.858
Uh, we are powered by discourse, which,

00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:52.981
um, I,

00:39:53.001 --> 00:39:54.521
it seems like a nice piece of software

00:39:54.623 --> 00:39:55.503
as far as I can tell.

00:39:55.704 --> 00:39:56.724
I haven't had to deal with it behind

00:39:56.744 --> 00:39:57.125
the scenes.

00:39:57.184 --> 00:39:59.108
Jonah does all our, our hosting,

00:39:59.168 --> 00:40:00.429
but it seems to work pretty great.

00:40:01.230 --> 00:40:01.670
And, um,

00:40:02.876 --> 00:40:03.918
I mean, I'm not going to mince words.

00:40:03.958 --> 00:40:05.159
This was absolutely,

00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:08.023
like a clapback was a good way to

00:40:08.043 --> 00:40:08.222
put it.

00:40:08.262 --> 00:40:09.724
This was a response.

00:40:10.666 --> 00:40:12.007
But I want to give a shout out

00:40:12.027 --> 00:40:13.931
to Discourse because to me,

00:40:13.990 --> 00:40:14.811
this felt like a very,

00:40:15.632 --> 00:40:16.434
it was very direct.

00:40:16.873 --> 00:40:20.579
It was not watered down.

00:40:21.340 --> 00:40:23.302
but it was also not overly aggressive or

00:40:23.422 --> 00:40:24.041
unprofessional.

00:40:24.061 --> 00:40:25.103
And I feel like I don't see that

00:40:25.123 --> 00:40:25.583
a lot of days,

00:40:25.603 --> 00:40:26.804
a lot of the time these days,

00:40:26.824 --> 00:40:27.985
and I just really appreciate that.

00:40:28.025 --> 00:40:29.387
So thank you, Discourse.

00:40:29.726 --> 00:40:31.268
This did not pull any punches,

00:40:31.748 --> 00:40:32.869
but was also...

00:40:34.326 --> 00:40:35.527
I don't know, just very professional,

00:40:35.547 --> 00:40:36.047
in my opinion,

00:40:36.206 --> 00:40:37.987
as professional as calling somebody out

00:40:38.007 --> 00:40:38.347
can be.

00:40:38.849 --> 00:40:39.128
But yeah,

00:40:39.168 --> 00:40:40.670
so discourse literally said discourse is

00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:41.650
not going closed source,

00:40:41.710 --> 00:40:43.911
which I think the cal.com was cal.com is

00:40:43.931 --> 00:40:44.632
going closed source.

00:40:44.672 --> 00:40:47.994
Yeah, that was a direct quote.

00:40:48.094 --> 00:40:48.653
And basically,

00:40:48.673 --> 00:40:50.894
they kind of said everything that Jordan

00:40:50.914 --> 00:40:52.956
said, actually, which is, you know,

00:40:52.976 --> 00:40:54.056
they said here that like,

00:40:54.117 --> 00:40:55.777
their reasoning is that AI has made open

00:40:55.818 --> 00:40:57.539
source too dangerous for software as a

00:40:57.579 --> 00:40:58.119
service companies,

00:40:58.159 --> 00:40:59.340
codes get scanned and exploited at

00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:01.242
buy AI at near zero cost.

00:41:02.101 --> 00:41:03.282
Actually real quick before I dive into

00:41:03.302 --> 00:41:03.443
that,

00:41:03.923 --> 00:41:06.206
the cal.com one did have one statement

00:41:06.226 --> 00:41:07.706
that I did want to kind of sympathize

00:41:07.726 --> 00:41:08.387
with them a little bit.

00:41:09.447 --> 00:41:11.489
So they talked about in recent months,

00:41:11.510 --> 00:41:13.251
we've seen a wave of AI security startups

00:41:13.592 --> 00:41:14.913
productizing this capability,

00:41:14.932 --> 00:41:17.153
which they're talking about scanning the

00:41:17.193 --> 00:41:17.635
source code.

00:41:18.635 --> 00:41:19.936
Each platform surfaces different

00:41:19.956 --> 00:41:20.538
vulnerabilities,

00:41:20.557 --> 00:41:22.079
making it difficult to establish a single

00:41:22.119 --> 00:41:23.760
reliable source of truth for what is

00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:24.461
actually secure.

00:41:24.842 --> 00:41:27.184
So the way I compared this,

00:41:27.344 --> 00:41:28.385
I don't remember where I said this,

00:41:28.965 --> 00:41:30.967
but the way I explained this to somebody,

00:41:31.088 --> 00:41:32.690
or I kind of summarized it is like,

00:41:33.050 --> 00:41:33.690
if you're at home,

00:41:33.871 --> 00:41:34.952
like let's say you just moved to a

00:41:34.992 --> 00:41:36.052
brand new country, right?

00:41:36.092 --> 00:41:36.833
Like not even a state,

00:41:37.114 --> 00:41:38.456
you're in a totally unfamiliar place.

00:41:39.096 --> 00:41:39.797
And all of a sudden,

00:41:39.817 --> 00:41:41.237
a bunch of like salespeople come knocking

00:41:41.277 --> 00:41:42.619
on your door, insurance salespeople.

00:41:42.699 --> 00:41:43.780
And this one guy is like, hey,

00:41:44.081 --> 00:41:45.121
you need flood insurance.

00:41:45.202 --> 00:41:46.003
And the next guy is like, no, no,

00:41:46.023 --> 00:41:46.342
no, no, no.

00:41:46.362 --> 00:41:47.284
There's a lot of wildfires.

00:41:47.304 --> 00:41:48.505
You need wildfire insurance.

00:41:48.824 --> 00:41:49.545
And the next guy is like, no,

00:41:49.565 --> 00:41:50.726
you need tornado insurance.

00:41:50.746 --> 00:41:51.447
And the next guy is like, no,

00:41:51.467 --> 00:41:52.628
you need earthquake insurance.

00:41:52.989 --> 00:41:53.389
And you're like,

00:41:53.750 --> 00:41:55.371
I don't know what insurance I need.

00:41:55.851 --> 00:41:57.393
And so Cal.com was basically like,

00:41:57.512 --> 00:41:58.693
I'm just not going to get any insurance.

00:41:58.753 --> 00:42:00.195
I'm just going to stop answering the door

00:42:00.655 --> 00:42:01.577
is basically what they did.

00:42:01.817 --> 00:42:02.056
Yeah.

00:42:02.978 --> 00:42:04.719
So I want to give them a little

00:42:04.739 --> 00:42:05.940
bit of credit because I understand how

00:42:05.981 --> 00:42:07.202
that could be frustrating when you've got

00:42:07.322 --> 00:42:08.943
so many different companies and they're

00:42:08.963 --> 00:42:10.344
all giving you conflicting results.

00:42:10.423 --> 00:42:10.905
And it's like, well,

00:42:10.965 --> 00:42:12.646
now I've only got so many people.

00:42:12.746 --> 00:42:13.907
I've only got so many hours in the

00:42:13.927 --> 00:42:14.088
day.

00:42:14.128 --> 00:42:15.329
We can only fix so many things.

00:42:15.829 --> 00:42:18.431
However, you know, discourse here,

00:42:18.471 --> 00:42:18.731
they said,

00:42:18.791 --> 00:42:19.813
I understand where they're coming from.

00:42:19.853 --> 00:42:20.954
The industry is changing fast.

00:42:20.994 --> 00:42:22.414
New AIs with capabilities are being

00:42:22.434 --> 00:42:23.315
released every few weeks.

00:42:23.356 --> 00:42:24.056
It's a scary world.

00:42:24.076 --> 00:42:25.336
And I completely agree that open source

00:42:25.356 --> 00:42:26.197
companies need to adapt.

00:42:26.617 --> 00:42:27.918
I do not agree with the decision that

00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:29.181
closing source is the solution.

00:42:30.253 --> 00:42:32.436
and um you know they they basically had

00:42:32.496 --> 00:42:34.416
two main points one of them was exactly

00:42:34.436 --> 00:42:36.978
what jordan said like going closed source

00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:39.019
is uh for anybody who's new here it's

00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:40.320
what we like to call security through

00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:43.083
obscurity and that basically means like

00:42:44.204 --> 00:42:45.545
it's the code equivalent of hiding under

00:42:45.585 --> 00:42:47.085
the bed right like if i hide under

00:42:47.106 --> 00:42:48.847
the the sheets the monsters can't see me

00:42:49.347 --> 00:42:50.907
and that's basically what it is and they

00:42:50.949 --> 00:42:52.809
point out here in this this blog post

00:42:53.409 --> 00:42:54.210
they say that um

00:42:55.646 --> 00:42:56.887
Closed source has always been a weaker

00:42:56.927 --> 00:42:58.188
defense than people want to admit.

00:42:58.307 --> 00:42:59.648
A web application is not something you

00:42:59.668 --> 00:43:00.650
shimp wants to keep hidden.

00:43:00.969 --> 00:43:02.251
Large parts of it are delivered straight

00:43:02.271 --> 00:43:03.833
into the user's browser on every request.

00:43:03.873 --> 00:43:05.614
Things like JavaScript, API contracts,

00:43:05.653 --> 00:43:07.215
client-side flows, validation logic,

00:43:07.255 --> 00:43:08.016
and feature behavior.

00:43:08.356 --> 00:43:09.777
Attackers can inspect all of that.

00:43:10.617 --> 00:43:13.000
And then there was another spot.

00:43:13.019 --> 00:43:13.661
Did I already pass it?

00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:13.940
Oh,

00:43:14.541 --> 00:43:16.463
those same AI systems don't actually need

00:43:16.483 --> 00:43:18.023
your source code to find vulnerabilities.

00:43:18.043 --> 00:43:19.664
They work against compiled binaries and

00:43:19.684 --> 00:43:20.686
black box APIs.

00:43:21.967 --> 00:43:23.447
I will admit that I do not know...

00:43:24.581 --> 00:43:27.403
a lot about technical stuff and code but

00:43:27.483 --> 00:43:30.186
i do know that i see a lot

00:43:30.226 --> 00:43:30.586
of um

00:43:32.184 --> 00:43:33.606
I see a lot of people reverse engineering

00:43:33.726 --> 00:43:34.126
apps, right?

00:43:34.166 --> 00:43:35.146
Proprietary apps.

00:43:35.588 --> 00:43:37.690
And they decompile it and they find ways

00:43:37.710 --> 00:43:39.210
to get in there and go, oh,

00:43:39.251 --> 00:43:40.231
look at what this app is doing.

00:43:40.271 --> 00:43:41.532
Look at all the calls home it's making.

00:43:41.552 --> 00:43:43.074
Look at the fact that the traffic is

00:43:43.114 --> 00:43:43.713
not encrypted.

00:43:43.753 --> 00:43:45.255
What's this server it's contacting?

00:43:45.835 --> 00:43:47.177
So clearly this is not,

00:43:47.898 --> 00:43:48.938
like the blog post says,

00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:50.199
it doesn't need to be open source.

00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:52.161
People can find ways into this stuff and

00:43:52.181 --> 00:43:53.362
they've been doing it for years.

00:43:53.963 --> 00:43:55.264
And so that doesn't actually stop

00:43:55.324 --> 00:43:55.623
anything.

00:43:55.684 --> 00:43:57.065
It's just security through obscurity.

00:43:57.786 --> 00:43:58.425
And it's...

00:43:59.324 --> 00:44:01.646
I think security through obscurity can be

00:44:01.746 --> 00:44:03.889
part of a larger defense.

00:44:03.909 --> 00:44:04.871
I don't know about in this case,

00:44:04.911 --> 00:44:05.572
but in general,

00:44:05.672 --> 00:44:07.054
I think there's times when it can be

00:44:07.574 --> 00:44:08.797
like a data removal, right?

00:44:08.856 --> 00:44:10.297
If you pay for a data removal service,

00:44:10.318 --> 00:44:11.619
like Easy Opt-outs is one that we

00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:12.561
recommend on the website.

00:44:15.065 --> 00:44:15.826
That's a good start.

00:44:16.226 --> 00:44:16.947
But also like...

00:44:17.893 --> 00:44:19.534
using a PO box whenever you're able to,

00:44:19.594 --> 00:44:21.135
like not putting your address in every

00:44:21.175 --> 00:44:22.115
single form online.

00:44:22.175 --> 00:44:22.615
Like, you know,

00:44:22.695 --> 00:44:23.815
it's part of a larger defense.

00:44:24.056 --> 00:44:25.416
I wouldn't rely on that by itself.

00:44:26.637 --> 00:44:29.079
And so the other point they made,

00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.521
this is a very, very long post.

00:44:33.481 --> 00:44:34.141
They said that, yeah,

00:44:35.646 --> 00:44:37.047
Basically, they think that this is a...

00:44:37.766 --> 00:44:39.128
The security argument is a convenient

00:44:39.148 --> 00:44:40.427
frame for decisions that are actually

00:44:40.447 --> 00:44:41.168
about something else.

00:44:41.188 --> 00:44:42.208
So one is, you know,

00:44:42.228 --> 00:44:43.630
Jordan mentioned that competitors can read

00:44:43.650 --> 00:44:44.670
your architecture and your product

00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:45.070
thinking.

00:44:45.630 --> 00:44:46.451
And then there's governance.

00:44:46.471 --> 00:44:47.791
They said open source communities push

00:44:47.811 --> 00:44:48.050
back.

00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:49.331
They file issues about decisions they

00:44:49.351 --> 00:44:49.751
don't like.

00:44:49.791 --> 00:44:50.271
They fork.

00:44:50.311 --> 00:44:51.353
It's exhausting to manage.

00:44:53.914 --> 00:44:54.574
I mean, fair.

00:44:55.114 --> 00:44:56.914
I will be the first to admit that

00:44:56.934 --> 00:44:57.556
every once in a while,

00:44:57.715 --> 00:44:58.996
I do get burned out on the community

00:44:59.016 --> 00:44:59.677
and I need a break.

00:44:59.777 --> 00:45:00.757
But I don't know if that's a good

00:45:00.777 --> 00:45:03.117
enough reason to close source your code.

00:45:03.657 --> 00:45:04.719
So yeah, it's...

00:45:06.434 --> 00:45:08.054
And just to go back to the it's

00:45:08.355 --> 00:45:09.135
competitors thing,

00:45:09.615 --> 00:45:10.635
Jordan pointed this out too.

00:45:10.815 --> 00:45:11.956
There are a lot of companies that are

00:45:12.016 --> 00:45:13.597
open source and they're thriving.

00:45:14.478 --> 00:45:15.557
Look at Bitwarden, for example.

00:45:15.797 --> 00:45:17.398
I mean, granted, they do have investors,

00:45:17.798 --> 00:45:18.780
but they're still open source.

00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:20.521
You can self-host Bitwarden.

00:45:20.541 --> 00:45:21.981
They have instructions on how to self-host

00:45:22.021 --> 00:45:22.722
Bitwarden.

00:45:23.081 --> 00:45:25.242
There clearly is a way to do both.

00:45:25.503 --> 00:45:27.264
And I do wonder if...

00:45:28.063 --> 00:45:31.724
cal.com explored any of those options uh

00:45:31.744 --> 00:45:33.144
it does sound kind of like there was

00:45:33.184 --> 00:45:35.945
just a lot of investor pressure and this

00:45:35.965 --> 00:45:37.346
was just the easy button right like if

00:45:37.365 --> 00:45:38.927
we go closed source that's going to make

00:45:38.947 --> 00:45:40.146
it harder for people to self-host they're

00:45:40.166 --> 00:45:41.608
going to have to pay for us we'll

00:45:41.648 --> 00:45:43.068
slap a bunch of scary warnings on our

00:45:43.088 --> 00:45:46.248
diy page which yeah that's that's not cool

00:45:46.349 --> 00:45:48.369
and actually to make that even worse if

00:45:48.429 --> 00:45:50.150
i can go back to their blog they

00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:52.710
did say that um where did it go

00:45:52.769 --> 00:45:54.650
here um

00:45:56.822 --> 00:45:57.202
God dang it.

00:45:57.302 --> 00:45:57.704
Okay, yes.

00:45:58.304 --> 00:45:59.385
While our production code base has

00:45:59.425 --> 00:46:00.586
significantly diverged,

00:46:00.626 --> 00:46:02.327
including major rewrites of core systems

00:46:02.347 --> 00:46:03.849
like authentication of data handling,

00:46:04.809 --> 00:46:05.871
we want to ensure that there is still

00:46:05.891 --> 00:46:06.791
a truly open version.

00:46:06.871 --> 00:46:07.612
So basically,

00:46:08.514 --> 00:46:10.615
the cal.diy version is completely

00:46:10.655 --> 00:46:12.257
different from the cal.com version

00:46:13.137 --> 00:46:14.659
Which raises a lot of questions for me.

00:46:14.958 --> 00:46:17.300
And they also make it sound like,

00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:18.981
I don't know if they're actually doing

00:46:19.001 --> 00:46:19.141
this,

00:46:19.181 --> 00:46:20.202
but they kind of almost made it sound

00:46:20.242 --> 00:46:22.163
like, here's Cal.DIY.

00:46:22.563 --> 00:46:23.864
We'll update it if we feel like it

00:46:23.903 --> 00:46:24.864
every once in a blue moon.

00:46:24.885 --> 00:46:26.085
But otherwise, like, we don't care.

00:46:26.125 --> 00:46:27.186
This is just kind of shut up the

00:46:27.206 --> 00:46:28.806
purists, which, again,

00:46:28.847 --> 00:46:30.608
is a really crappy take from a community

00:46:30.648 --> 00:46:31.708
you claim to have...

00:46:32.608 --> 00:46:36.532
valued and whatever but yeah so um this

00:46:36.552 --> 00:46:38.153
is a really long blog from discourse but

00:46:38.233 --> 00:46:40.014
it is worth a read and again i

00:46:40.135 --> 00:46:41.817
i really applaud that like they pulled no

00:46:41.856 --> 00:46:45.259
punches but it also wasn't uh you know

00:46:45.298 --> 00:46:47.061
just like a like oh it's a pr

00:46:47.101 --> 00:46:48.842
opportunity like here's our facts here's

00:46:48.882 --> 00:46:51.885
our our experience our reasoning um so i

00:46:51.905 --> 00:46:52.786
really give them a lot of credit for

00:46:52.826 --> 00:46:55.288
that one but yeah that was a

00:46:57.166 --> 00:46:58.909
It's such a wild story, and it's so...

00:46:59.628 --> 00:47:01.190
I hate to assume malice in a company,

00:47:01.271 --> 00:47:03.393
but yeah, it's so... What turned me off,

00:47:03.432 --> 00:47:04.974
I think, was just the fact that, again,

00:47:05.914 --> 00:47:06.876
that's all it was,

00:47:06.956 --> 00:47:09.177
was we're just going to go closed source,

00:47:09.217 --> 00:47:10.458
and that's going to fix all our problems.

00:47:10.998 --> 00:47:12.039
And almost immediately,

00:47:12.139 --> 00:47:13.501
I saw everybody was just kind of like,

00:47:14.601 --> 00:47:15.141
is it though?

00:47:15.222 --> 00:47:16.583
Is that really what this is about?

00:47:16.744 --> 00:47:17.744
And it just kind of...

00:47:19.471 --> 00:47:20.211
I think that's going to do a lot

00:47:20.251 --> 00:47:21.833
more damage than if they had just admitted

00:47:22.112 --> 00:47:23.313
like, hey,

00:47:24.295 --> 00:47:25.775
this business model isn't working for us

00:47:25.815 --> 00:47:26.815
and we're going to try something else.

00:47:27.157 --> 00:47:28.157
I think they might end up losing a

00:47:28.177 --> 00:47:30.219
lot more customers because of the way they

00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:30.699
handle this.

00:47:30.778 --> 00:47:31.099
I don't know.

00:47:32.260 --> 00:47:33.740
Do you have any additional thoughts to the

00:47:33.780 --> 00:47:34.961
discourse response or anything?

00:47:36.844 --> 00:47:37.164
Yeah,

00:47:37.284 --> 00:47:39.905
I just think trying to pass this off

00:47:40.166 --> 00:47:42.728
as selling for security reasons,

00:47:42.867 --> 00:47:43.668
I think is

00:47:44.894 --> 00:47:46.737
to people that actually follow and

00:47:46.898 --> 00:47:49.981
understand security is just laughable.

00:47:50.121 --> 00:47:53.125
And I think unfortunately those people are

00:47:53.164 --> 00:47:53.905
in a lot of cases,

00:47:53.965 --> 00:47:55.447
they're going to be the people that self

00:47:55.487 --> 00:47:56.829
host this software.

00:47:56.889 --> 00:47:59.253
So they're going to be the ones that

00:47:59.293 --> 00:48:01.416
realize you're being kind of crappy about

00:48:01.456 --> 00:48:01.536
it.

00:48:01.576 --> 00:48:01.876
Right.

00:48:02.177 --> 00:48:02.297
Um,

00:48:04.760 --> 00:48:05.802
I think they should have been a bit

00:48:05.862 --> 00:48:09.027
more clear about the reasoning because,

00:48:09.126 --> 00:48:09.407
you know,

00:48:10.168 --> 00:48:13.293
we don't know if there's another reason

00:48:13.333 --> 00:48:13.632
why,

00:48:13.693 --> 00:48:15.054
like we were talking about with the VC

00:48:15.074 --> 00:48:15.695
investors.

00:48:15.795 --> 00:48:18.500
But I think, you know,

00:48:18.579 --> 00:48:20.282
especially when we have like, you know,

00:48:21.681 --> 00:48:26.682
so many ways to analyze software um that's

00:48:26.722 --> 00:48:29.123
closed source even um so you know people

00:48:29.143 --> 00:48:31.885
can do like fuzzing they can feed programs

00:48:32.025 --> 00:48:33.284
a bunch of random data to get it

00:48:33.304 --> 00:48:37.947
to fail they can um do binary analysis

00:48:38.007 --> 00:48:40.447
so you can inspect memory dumps of like

00:48:40.507 --> 00:48:44.289
applications when they they run uh like

00:48:44.349 --> 00:48:47.771
reverse engineering stuff so you know i

00:48:47.811 --> 00:48:48.471
think it's

00:48:50.713 --> 00:48:55.277
kind of a little bit, uh, it's, it's,

00:48:55.577 --> 00:48:58.199
it's feels a bit disingenuous.

00:48:58.239 --> 00:48:59.201
That's the word I was looking for.

00:48:59.601 --> 00:48:59.960
Thank you.

00:49:00.561 --> 00:49:01.722
Um, but yeah,

00:49:01.742 --> 00:49:03.003
like we see this a lot,

00:49:03.023 --> 00:49:05.244
like even the opposite way around,

00:49:05.284 --> 00:49:05.925
like there's,

00:49:06.025 --> 00:49:08.387
there's malware that we see and, you know,

00:49:08.407 --> 00:49:10.168
we're able to analyze that malware,

00:49:10.949 --> 00:49:11.971
stuff like that, um,

00:49:12.271 --> 00:49:16.213
to see what it's doing and to understand

00:49:16.233 --> 00:49:16.353
what

00:49:16.925 --> 00:49:18.166
what the code might be.

00:49:19.927 --> 00:49:20.509
So anyway,

00:49:20.608 --> 00:49:22.891
I don't think them switching to closed

00:49:22.911 --> 00:49:24.711
source is going to make it any,

00:49:26.313 --> 00:49:26.514
I mean,

00:49:26.773 --> 00:49:29.396
surely maybe a little bit possibly to

00:49:29.436 --> 00:49:29.576
these,

00:49:29.876 --> 00:49:31.818
to these basic AI vulnerability things,

00:49:31.898 --> 00:49:33.780
but I don't think it's a good enough

00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:37.583
reason to switch this because yeah,

00:49:37.643 --> 00:49:41.846
I think it's, yeah,

00:49:42.005 --> 00:49:43.907
it just feels really not great when

00:49:43.927 --> 00:49:45.248
they're trying to make up a reason that

00:49:45.268 --> 00:49:46.110
doesn't really exist.

00:49:47.608 --> 00:49:47.969
Yeah, and I mean,

00:49:48.028 --> 00:49:49.190
something that just popped into my head

00:49:49.231 --> 00:49:50.554
is, you know, one of,

00:49:50.675 --> 00:49:52.038
there's a lot of reasons you might make

00:49:52.077 --> 00:49:53.621
something open source or even source

00:49:53.641 --> 00:49:54.583
available, like you mentioned.

00:49:55.043 --> 00:49:56.987
But one of the reasons I think is

00:49:57.027 --> 00:49:57.268
that

00:49:58.387 --> 00:49:59.969
it increases the chance that somebody

00:49:59.989 --> 00:50:01.309
could find a vulnerability, right?

00:50:01.371 --> 00:50:02.672
I want to make it clear real quick

00:50:02.711 --> 00:50:04.952
that open source does not automatically

00:50:04.994 --> 00:50:06.574
mean that something is more secure or more

00:50:06.635 --> 00:50:06.974
private.

00:50:07.355 --> 00:50:08.797
It just means that the opportunity is

00:50:08.836 --> 00:50:09.056
there.

00:50:09.137 --> 00:50:11.179
And I think there is a certain critical

00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:12.440
mass where when we're talking about these

00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.942
bigger projects like Bitwarden or maybe

00:50:14.981 --> 00:50:16.003
Proton or some of these,

00:50:16.342 --> 00:50:17.023
because I know Proton,

00:50:17.043 --> 00:50:18.384
some parts of them are open source,

00:50:18.403 --> 00:50:18.945
some parts aren't.

00:50:19.005 --> 00:50:19.525
But you know what I mean?

00:50:19.545 --> 00:50:21.007
When we're talking about big projects like

00:50:21.027 --> 00:50:22.027
that, then...

00:50:22.827 --> 00:50:24.509
I think odds are it probably is more

00:50:24.548 --> 00:50:26.971
secure just because they're a big project

00:50:26.990 --> 00:50:27.911
and they've got a lot of eyes on

00:50:27.931 --> 00:50:28.072
them.

00:50:28.552 --> 00:50:30.014
But especially for some of these smaller,

00:50:30.074 --> 00:50:31.134
like mid-level projects,

00:50:31.295 --> 00:50:33.215
I don't know how true that necessarily is.

00:50:33.356 --> 00:50:34.496
It's probably not true,

00:50:35.056 --> 00:50:37.438
but the opportunity exists.

00:50:37.900 --> 00:50:39.201
And where I'm going with that is I

00:50:39.221 --> 00:50:41.762
think, especially in this community, um,

00:50:42.663 --> 00:50:45.764
There's such a dislike for AI.

00:50:46.563 --> 00:50:48.585
I think they're almost going to reverse.

00:50:50.045 --> 00:50:51.346
They're almost shooting themselves in the

00:50:51.385 --> 00:50:51.945
foot.

00:50:52.385 --> 00:50:53.846
If this really were about security,

00:50:54.266 --> 00:50:55.246
they're kind of shooting themselves in the

00:50:55.266 --> 00:50:57.487
foot because the bad guys are still going

00:50:57.507 --> 00:50:58.407
to use AI.

00:50:58.427 --> 00:50:59.047
They don't care.

00:50:59.088 --> 00:51:00.487
They're going to use any advantage they

00:51:00.507 --> 00:51:01.188
can to get ahead.

00:51:01.228 --> 00:51:02.228
They don't play by any rules.

00:51:02.829 --> 00:51:03.548
The good guys,

00:51:04.389 --> 00:51:05.710
not all of them will be using AI.

00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:06.269
Right?

00:51:06.869 --> 00:51:08.090
And they're playing by a different set of

00:51:08.130 --> 00:51:08.471
rules.

00:51:08.811 --> 00:51:10.472
So you almost need to like...

00:51:11.032 --> 00:51:12.293
Like we've been said a million times now,

00:51:12.333 --> 00:51:13.215
the bad guys are going to find the

00:51:13.235 --> 00:51:14.235
vulnerabilities no matter what,

00:51:14.275 --> 00:51:15.336
whether it's open source or not.

00:51:15.856 --> 00:51:16.898
By making it closed source,

00:51:16.958 --> 00:51:18.438
the only people you're stopping are the

00:51:18.478 --> 00:51:20.240
good guys who are not using AI.

00:51:21.282 --> 00:51:23.623
So yeah, that's... I don't know.

00:51:23.643 --> 00:51:24.724
That just kind of popped into my head.

00:51:26.385 --> 00:51:27.827
Yeah, I think...

00:51:28.106 --> 00:51:30.007
I'm not sure if I a hundred percent

00:51:30.027 --> 00:51:31.989
agree on the privacy and security aspect.

00:51:32.030 --> 00:51:33.811
I think it's more like a transparency

00:51:33.851 --> 00:51:35.373
thing, which I mean...

00:51:36.635 --> 00:51:40.181
is good uh for like trust and like

00:51:40.240 --> 00:51:43.925
stuff like that but like uh i mean

00:51:44.045 --> 00:51:45.788
i i think there's definitely there could

00:51:45.807 --> 00:51:47.731
be closed source software that's just as

00:51:47.791 --> 00:51:50.954
private as some open source software or

00:51:50.974 --> 00:51:52.456
they could be closed source software

00:51:52.476 --> 00:51:53.978
that's just as private as

00:51:55.313 --> 00:51:56.153
open source software.

00:51:56.233 --> 00:51:58.394
So, you know, it's, I don't know.

00:51:58.474 --> 00:51:58.594
Uh,

00:52:00.637 --> 00:52:02.518
it just seems like a really silly reason

00:52:02.557 --> 00:52:03.958
to me, but I think we,

00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:05.099
obviously we're going to,

00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:06.760
we're going to push for transparency.

00:52:06.780 --> 00:52:10.402
Like transparency is important, um,

00:52:10.443 --> 00:52:12.483
rather than kind of a black box,

00:52:12.503 --> 00:52:13.824
which we have to work out things

00:52:14.885 --> 00:52:15.606
ourselves.

00:52:15.867 --> 00:52:20.650
Um, so yeah.

00:52:20.670 --> 00:52:21.070
Agreed.

00:52:21.090 --> 00:52:21.150
Um,

00:52:22.873 --> 00:52:23.373
Alrighty.

00:52:24.313 --> 00:52:26.335
Well, before we dive into,

00:52:26.376 --> 00:52:28.458
we have a story coming up about, uh,

00:52:28.789 --> 00:52:28.949
Well,

00:52:29.048 --> 00:52:31.050
some updates to age verification or

00:52:31.090 --> 00:52:32.050
identity verification,

00:52:32.150 --> 00:52:32.871
let's put it that way.

00:52:33.431 --> 00:52:33.891
But first,

00:52:33.911 --> 00:52:35.211
we're going to pause and talk about some

00:52:35.271 --> 00:52:37.032
updates with what we've been working on at

00:52:37.072 --> 00:52:38.153
Privacy Guides this week.

00:52:38.813 --> 00:52:40.235
So in the video department,

00:52:40.755 --> 00:52:41.556
we're really excited.

00:52:42.476 --> 00:52:43.817
Bit of a soft announcement here.

00:52:43.936 --> 00:52:44.536
On Sunday,

00:52:44.556 --> 00:52:46.177
we're going to release an interview with

00:52:46.217 --> 00:52:47.358
Carissa Veiles.

00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:49.519
And if you guys don't know who that

00:52:49.579 --> 00:52:50.940
is, you definitely should look her up.

00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:52.501
You're missing out.

00:52:52.521 --> 00:52:54.322
She wrote this awesome book called Privacy

00:52:54.342 --> 00:52:54.682
is Power.

00:52:56.054 --> 00:52:56.673
I'll grab it in a minute,

00:52:56.693 --> 00:52:57.635
but I actually have it on my bookshelf

00:52:57.655 --> 00:52:58.014
back there.

00:52:58.516 --> 00:53:00.317
And it's honestly,

00:53:00.376 --> 00:53:01.978
like I could gush about this book because

00:53:01.998 --> 00:53:03.800
it is so accessible.

00:53:04.059 --> 00:53:05.021
You know, it's so like,

00:53:06.706 --> 00:53:08.427
I don't want to take drive-bys at other

00:53:08.507 --> 00:53:08.788
authors,

00:53:08.849 --> 00:53:11.030
but some other authors have written some

00:53:11.090 --> 00:53:13.271
very seminal works in the space that were

00:53:13.431 --> 00:53:15.893
very academic and kind of hard to read

00:53:15.913 --> 00:53:16.673
and pretty dense.

00:53:17.253 --> 00:53:19.054
And Carissa Vales is, I mean,

00:53:19.094 --> 00:53:21.697
she's a professor of ethics at Oxford

00:53:21.737 --> 00:53:22.217
university.

00:53:22.257 --> 00:53:24.418
So she is very academic as a person,

00:53:24.878 --> 00:53:26.820
but her writing is so like plain English

00:53:26.900 --> 00:53:27.641
and down to earth.

00:53:27.661 --> 00:53:29.061
Like I could give this book to anybody

00:53:29.563 --> 00:53:30.762
and maybe they wouldn't read it because

00:53:30.782 --> 00:53:31.704
it's not their cup of tea,

00:53:32.083 --> 00:53:33.766
but they absolutely could read it because

00:53:33.786 --> 00:53:35.907
it is written so plain English and it's

00:53:36.286 --> 00:53:36.626
Um,

00:53:36.646 --> 00:53:38.427
but in still like full of useful

00:53:38.447 --> 00:53:38.887
information.

00:53:38.927 --> 00:53:40.528
So yeah, I, as you can tell,

00:53:40.568 --> 00:53:41.509
I'm a huge fan, but, uh,

00:53:41.528 --> 00:53:43.309
we got to interview her and we talked

00:53:43.329 --> 00:53:45.971
about her focuses on AI and ethics and,

00:53:46.010 --> 00:53:46.231
you know,

00:53:46.351 --> 00:53:49.251
what is AI going to do for the

00:53:49.271 --> 00:53:51.452
future of, of our society?

00:53:51.693 --> 00:53:51.773
Uh,

00:53:51.813 --> 00:53:53.333
we did talk about privacy a little bit.

00:53:54.393 --> 00:53:55.353
Um, I mean, it was a,

00:53:55.393 --> 00:53:56.313
it was a great conversation.

00:53:56.333 --> 00:53:58.054
I, uh, again, not to like

00:53:58.635 --> 00:53:59.375
fanboy too much,

00:53:59.414 --> 00:54:01.115
but I was telling people like,

00:54:01.235 --> 00:54:02.456
I felt like I was smarter just for

00:54:02.496 --> 00:54:03.956
having been in the same figurative room as

00:54:03.996 --> 00:54:04.195
her.

00:54:04.376 --> 00:54:04.476
Um,

00:54:04.556 --> 00:54:05.797
unfortunately this was a remote interview,

00:54:05.836 --> 00:54:07.896
not an in-person one, but, um, yeah,

00:54:07.916 --> 00:54:08.956
so that's going to be out on Sunday.

00:54:09.077 --> 00:54:10.378
She's absolutely awesome.

00:54:10.918 --> 00:54:11.878
Go read privacy is power.

00:54:11.898 --> 00:54:12.878
If you haven't, uh,

00:54:12.898 --> 00:54:14.498
I've already pre-ordered her new book and

00:54:14.539 --> 00:54:15.739
you will get a taste of that on

00:54:15.818 --> 00:54:16.199
Sunday.

00:54:16.318 --> 00:54:19.059
So definitely subscribe on YouTube or peer

00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:19.400
tube.

00:54:19.659 --> 00:54:21.079
And we'll be posting that when we come

00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.920
out or when it comes out,

00:54:24.001 --> 00:54:24.661
I can't talk tonight.

00:54:28.277 --> 00:54:28.617
Yeah, no,

00:54:28.757 --> 00:54:30.559
I'm really excited for the interview to

00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:31.298
get released.

00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.400
I've been working on like the editing side

00:54:34.420 --> 00:54:34.922
of things.

00:54:35.822 --> 00:54:36.443
Oh, there it is.

00:54:36.663 --> 00:54:37.202
There's the book.

00:54:37.603 --> 00:54:39.985
It's kind of a very recognizable cover as

00:54:40.025 --> 00:54:40.465
well.

00:54:42.586 --> 00:54:43.007
But yeah,

00:54:43.226 --> 00:54:46.130
I definitely am a fan as well.

00:54:46.289 --> 00:54:47.550
I think, yeah.

00:54:49.172 --> 00:54:50.432
And Nate asked some,

00:54:50.472 --> 00:54:51.713
some really good questions in the

00:54:51.733 --> 00:54:53.994
interview about a lot of things that she

00:54:54.074 --> 00:54:57.358
hasn't talked about publicly,

00:54:57.418 --> 00:54:58.458
I would say as much.

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:00.619
And a lot of stuff that was in

00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:01.440
the book itself.

00:55:01.739 --> 00:55:03.782
So it's like a teaser,

00:55:04.001 --> 00:55:05.443
like she's going to talk about some of

00:55:05.503 --> 00:55:07.123
the stuff in the book and, you know,

00:55:09.114 --> 00:55:11.456
I think it's interesting, yeah.

00:55:11.496 --> 00:55:12.856
So she's got a new book coming out

00:55:12.896 --> 00:55:13.717
called Prophecy,

00:55:13.896 --> 00:55:19.920
which is about AI prediction stuff.

00:55:20.340 --> 00:55:22.061
So, yeah, that's also pretty interesting.

00:55:22.141 --> 00:55:24.324
So that could be interesting to check out

00:55:24.364 --> 00:55:24.764
as well.

00:55:25.264 --> 00:55:28.326
I think it's on pre-order until April XIX

00:55:28.706 --> 00:55:31.447
or XXI, XXI, April XXI.

00:55:33.248 --> 00:55:35.791
So it is looking quite interesting for

00:55:35.831 --> 00:55:36.070
that.

00:55:38.052 --> 00:55:40.693
But this week we also had some privacy

00:55:40.713 --> 00:55:42.375
guides news posts.

00:55:42.835 --> 00:55:44.255
So we had,

00:55:45.175 --> 00:55:47.518
looks like we had a couple from Freya

00:55:47.898 --> 00:55:50.139
and also a couple from Nate as well.

00:55:50.219 --> 00:55:53.280
So Nate did one on HackerOne pausing its

00:55:53.380 --> 00:55:54.802
internet bug bounty.

00:55:56.003 --> 00:55:57.983
So they also kind of were saying that

00:55:58.003 --> 00:56:00.425
they were having an issue with AI bug

00:56:00.465 --> 00:56:04.007
reports, which that's another problem,

00:56:04.068 --> 00:56:04.407
I think.

00:56:05.548 --> 00:56:07.150
There was a data breach roundup from Nate

00:56:07.190 --> 00:56:07.550
as well.

00:56:09.110 --> 00:56:10.610
which I think is important to keep on

00:56:10.670 --> 00:56:11.811
top of, just scan the list.

00:56:11.891 --> 00:56:13.751
Just check it out and scan the list

00:56:13.771 --> 00:56:15.512
because you never know what you might be

00:56:15.612 --> 00:56:16.193
caught up in.

00:56:16.992 --> 00:56:20.893
And I think companies are getting to a

00:56:20.954 --> 00:56:21.795
point where they are

00:56:22.759 --> 00:56:23.878
being a bit more accountable where

00:56:23.898 --> 00:56:24.380
they're, you know,

00:56:25.340 --> 00:56:26.760
sending out notices to people,

00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:28.762
but it's also good to keep on top

00:56:28.782 --> 00:56:29.141
of that.

00:56:30.061 --> 00:56:33.302
And there was also some articles here from

00:56:33.402 --> 00:56:35.965
Fria, like Nate talked about earlier,

00:56:37.204 --> 00:56:38.766
there's Mastodon getting end-to-end

00:56:38.806 --> 00:56:40.847
encryption, private messages.

00:56:41.606 --> 00:56:43.547
So Fria had an article about that.

00:56:44.847 --> 00:56:47.068
Fiverr exposing information of its users

00:56:47.128 --> 00:56:49.690
publicly on Google search results.

00:56:50.110 --> 00:56:50.670
Oh my goodness.

00:56:51.632 --> 00:56:52.952
It's horrible.

00:56:53.233 --> 00:56:56.534
India dropping proposals to require

00:56:56.614 --> 00:57:00.996
biometric ID app after strong opposition.

00:57:01.335 --> 00:57:02.476
So yeah,

00:57:02.615 --> 00:57:04.097
there's a lot of interesting things going

00:57:04.137 --> 00:57:05.376
on in India regarding that.

00:57:06.797 --> 00:57:09.217
And there was also some stuff about Google

00:57:09.237 --> 00:57:11.699
Chrome adding protection against cookie

00:57:11.878 --> 00:57:12.858
stealing malware.

00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:15.860
But yeah, kind of interesting,

00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:17.021
interesting week.

00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:18.340
So definitely check out the

00:57:18.460 --> 00:57:21.181
privacyguides.org slash news section.

00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:24.920
I guess with that being said,

00:57:26.181 --> 00:57:28.083
all this is made possible by our

00:57:28.103 --> 00:57:28.684
supporters.

00:57:29.264 --> 00:57:31.766
And you can sign up for a membership

00:57:31.907 --> 00:57:34.088
or donate to privacyguides.org.

00:57:35.952 --> 00:57:37.494
or you can pick up some swag at

00:57:37.635 --> 00:57:39.275
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:57:39.815 --> 00:57:42.199
Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

00:57:42.338 --> 00:57:44.621
researches and shares privacy-related

00:57:44.681 --> 00:57:47.443
information and facilitates a community on

00:57:47.503 --> 00:57:49.324
our forum and matrix where people can ask

00:57:49.364 --> 00:57:51.507
questions and get advice about staying

00:57:51.547 --> 00:57:54.108
private online and preserving their

00:57:54.148 --> 00:57:54.949
digital rights.

00:57:55.951 --> 00:57:57.452
And yep, if you want to do that,

00:57:57.492 --> 00:57:59.753
you can visit privacyguides.org and press

00:57:59.793 --> 00:58:02.476
the red heart icon in the top right-hand

00:58:02.556 --> 00:58:02.896
corner.

00:58:03.396 --> 00:58:04.318
of the website.

00:58:04.657 --> 00:58:06.018
You'll also be able to sign up for

00:58:06.059 --> 00:58:08.702
a membership and get sweet perks as well.

00:58:09.342 --> 00:58:11.903
But now let's talk about the future of

00:58:11.963 --> 00:58:15.626
warrantless surveillance in the U S Nate.

00:58:17.027 --> 00:58:17.289
Yeah.

00:58:17.309 --> 00:58:17.648
All right.

00:58:18.929 --> 00:58:20.630
As the, uh, as the American,

00:58:20.710 --> 00:58:22.092
I guess I get to talk about this

00:58:22.132 --> 00:58:24.233
fun little topic and, uh,

00:58:24.273 --> 00:58:26.916
that is section seven Oh two, which, um,

00:58:26.936 --> 00:58:29.378
many of you may not be super familiar

00:58:29.398 --> 00:58:29.518
with.

00:58:29.739 --> 00:58:31.619
I, for the record, um,

00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:33.961
I follow many different news sources.

00:58:34.842 --> 00:58:36.244
The other news source that came up in

00:58:36.264 --> 00:58:37.885
my feed was TechCrunch that covered this

00:58:37.905 --> 00:58:38.326
story.

00:58:39.326 --> 00:58:40.646
I know I just want to throw it

00:58:40.666 --> 00:58:40.947
out there.

00:58:41.047 --> 00:58:42.869
I know this headline is obviously has a

00:58:42.909 --> 00:58:44.030
certain political leaning to it,

00:58:44.329 --> 00:58:45.690
but it had a lot more detail in

00:58:45.731 --> 00:58:46.152
it as well.

00:58:46.231 --> 00:58:47.291
So that's why I went with this one.

00:58:48.273 --> 00:58:49.653
Definitely a lot more detailed than

00:58:49.693 --> 00:58:51.114
TechCrunch is like five paragraphs.

00:58:51.596 --> 00:58:51.956
But anyways,

00:58:53.317 --> 00:58:54.358
so for those of you who don't know,

00:58:54.458 --> 00:58:55.498
here in the US,

00:58:56.438 --> 00:58:58.181
we have the infamous NSA,

00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:01.063
the National Security Agency.

00:59:01.518 --> 00:59:02.500
I think for some reason,

00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:03.219
my brain just blanked.

00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:04.420
I know they used to jokingly call it

00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.021
the no such agency because up until the

00:59:06.061 --> 00:59:06.382
nineties,

00:59:06.402 --> 00:59:07.643
they didn't even acknowledge it existed,

00:59:07.722 --> 00:59:09.003
but it does exist.

00:59:09.204 --> 00:59:11.085
And they have so many different things.

00:59:11.565 --> 00:59:12.786
One of them is called the foreign

00:59:12.827 --> 00:59:14.347
intelligence surveillance act,

00:59:14.487 --> 00:59:17.269
which basically authorizes them to spy on,

00:59:18.090 --> 00:59:18.251
um,

00:59:18.951 --> 00:59:20.291
communications that go in and out of the

00:59:20.311 --> 00:59:20.751
country.

00:59:21.371 --> 00:59:23.893
And they play really fast and loose with

00:59:23.913 --> 00:59:25.673
that specifically at section seven Oh two,

00:59:25.693 --> 00:59:27.835
which if I remember correctly, um,

00:59:28.315 --> 00:59:29.896
John Oliver did a piece way back in

00:59:29.916 --> 00:59:31.516
twenty thirteen where he talked about this

00:59:31.556 --> 00:59:32.956
and he went to Russia and interviewed

00:59:32.996 --> 00:59:33.617
Edward Snowden.

00:59:34.036 --> 00:59:34.717
Super funny.

00:59:34.918 --> 00:59:36.838
I highly recommend it still holds up.

00:59:37.619 --> 00:59:37.759
Um,

00:59:38.539 --> 00:59:39.940
But the way he described or the way

00:59:39.980 --> 00:59:42.121
he read Section seven oh two is it

00:59:42.161 --> 00:59:43.463
allows for the collection of, quote,

00:59:43.663 --> 00:59:46.083
any tangible thing, unquote,

00:59:46.143 --> 00:59:50.547
related to like national security and like

00:59:50.567 --> 00:59:51.248
communications,

00:59:51.927 --> 00:59:54.030
which he points out is like so incredibly

00:59:54.070 --> 00:59:54.469
broad,

00:59:54.630 --> 00:59:56.190
like telling your teenager you can only

00:59:56.231 --> 00:59:58.112
use the car for like car related

00:59:58.152 --> 00:59:58.693
activities.

00:59:58.733 --> 01:00:00.454
So it's like, OK, hit and run,

01:00:00.514 --> 01:00:02.416
drinking and driving like these are all

01:00:02.496 --> 01:00:03.817
car like street racing.

01:00:04.197 --> 01:00:05.757
These are all car related activities,

01:00:05.797 --> 01:00:06.157
my dude.

01:00:06.257 --> 01:00:06.838
So yeah.

01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:09.221
pretty broad stuff and the government has

01:00:10.521 --> 01:00:11.503
done so accordingly.

01:00:12.143 --> 01:00:14.306
And so section seven Oh two has been

01:00:14.365 --> 01:00:15.927
very controversial on both sides of the

01:00:16.007 --> 01:00:16.208
aisle.

01:00:16.467 --> 01:00:16.547
Uh,

01:00:16.568 --> 01:00:17.909
there have been politicians from both

01:00:17.949 --> 01:00:19.791
political parties who have said like, Hey,

01:00:19.811 --> 01:00:20.833
we need to reign this in at least

01:00:20.853 --> 01:00:22.153
publicly have said we need to reign this

01:00:22.233 --> 01:00:24.335
in because for well over a decade now

01:00:24.376 --> 01:00:25.336
we have failed to do that,

01:00:25.898 --> 01:00:28.360
but that might be changing might be

01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:29.561
because, um,

01:00:30.677 --> 01:00:31.858
Section seven Oh two is one of those

01:00:31.878 --> 01:00:33.199
things that has to be renewed

01:00:33.259 --> 01:00:33.938
periodically.

01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:37.001
And around midnight,

01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:38.280
I don't know why he did that,

01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:39.742
but for whatever reason,

01:00:40.422 --> 01:00:41.541
the speaker of the house,

01:00:41.581 --> 01:00:42.802
which is basically the guy running the

01:00:42.822 --> 01:00:43.702
house of representatives,

01:00:44.103 --> 01:00:45.344
the head representative,

01:00:46.483 --> 01:00:48.445
he convened a vote on,

01:00:48.644 --> 01:00:49.826
I guess this was last Friday.

01:00:49.905 --> 01:00:51.065
So this would have been after we recorded

01:00:51.085 --> 01:00:53.507
the podcast last week and called in

01:00:53.547 --> 01:00:55.688
lawmakers to vote on extending section

01:00:55.728 --> 01:00:56.248
seven Oh two.

01:00:57.068 --> 01:00:57.668
And it failed.

01:00:59.463 --> 01:01:00.804
by, I believe, where did it go?

01:01:00.864 --> 01:01:02.364
They said about a dozen votes.

01:01:03.045 --> 01:01:05.625
And for those of you who are not

01:01:05.644 --> 01:01:06.706
keeping up with the US right now,

01:01:06.746 --> 01:01:08.045
first of all, I very much envy you.

01:01:08.626 --> 01:01:13.867
But our government is incredibly divided,

01:01:13.927 --> 01:01:15.327
potentially the most divided it's ever

01:01:15.367 --> 01:01:15.588
been.

01:01:15.728 --> 01:01:16.807
I don't know if that's actually true,

01:01:16.867 --> 01:01:19.648
but everything is very partisan right now.

01:01:20.728 --> 01:01:21.728
That is not me being snarky.

01:01:21.768 --> 01:01:22.449
That is just true.

01:01:22.608 --> 01:01:23.989
Everything is very partisan right now.

01:01:24.628 --> 01:01:26.690
And on top of it, the...

01:01:28.780 --> 01:01:30.079
what's the word I'm looking for?

01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:32.340
The margin of control, like the ratio of,

01:01:32.641 --> 01:01:33.860
because we have a two-party system in the

01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:35.382
US, which is probably our first mistake.

01:01:36.601 --> 01:01:38.722
Our ratio of like one party to the

01:01:38.782 --> 01:01:40.382
other is like razor thin.

01:01:40.922 --> 01:01:42.344
So everything is very contentious.

01:01:42.403 --> 01:01:44.123
Right now, the Republicans,

01:01:44.164 --> 01:01:45.264
which is our conservative party,

01:01:45.304 --> 01:01:46.844
they have a slight majority,

01:01:47.465 --> 01:01:48.925
but it would not take a lot of

01:01:48.965 --> 01:01:49.865
votes to flip things.

01:01:50.226 --> 01:01:52.586
And that matters because about a dozen

01:01:52.646 --> 01:01:54.606
Republicans voted against renewing this

01:01:54.626 --> 01:01:54.827
thing.

01:01:54.927 --> 01:01:57.148
And that was enough to not pass it.

01:01:57.947 --> 01:01:59.369
And they tried again anyways.

01:01:59.409 --> 01:01:59.869
They were like, hey,

01:01:59.889 --> 01:02:00.610
let's do another vote.

01:02:00.650 --> 01:02:01.711
Like the same night, they were like,

01:02:01.731 --> 01:02:02.452
let's do another vote.

01:02:03.014 --> 01:02:04.014
And then the number went up to like

01:02:04.094 --> 01:02:04.454
twenty.

01:02:04.896 --> 01:02:07.038
And I think that's when the Speaker of

01:02:07.057 --> 01:02:07.898
the House was like, oh,

01:02:07.998 --> 01:02:09.681
we should probably stop because I'm losing

01:02:09.721 --> 01:02:10.041
support.

01:02:11.121 --> 01:02:11.722
So they stopped.

01:02:12.483 --> 01:02:13.545
They did manage to pass.

01:02:14.005 --> 01:02:15.065
Sorry, I did a control F here.

01:02:15.947 --> 01:02:17.728
They did manage to pass a ten day

01:02:17.768 --> 01:02:18.389
extension.

01:02:18.550 --> 01:02:18.769
So

01:02:20.083 --> 01:02:20.663
Previously,

01:02:20.762 --> 01:02:22.184
it would have run out on Tuesday.

01:02:22.423 --> 01:02:23.925
Now it's going to go basically until the

01:02:23.965 --> 01:02:24.626
end of the month.

01:02:26.047 --> 01:02:26.646
But even then,

01:02:26.786 --> 01:02:29.909
it's still – the US is so weird.

01:02:31.670 --> 01:02:33.351
It says later on here that – yeah,

01:02:33.411 --> 01:02:33.731
right here.

01:02:34.010 --> 01:02:35.092
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance

01:02:35.112 --> 01:02:36.972
Court quietly recertified the program in a

01:02:37.012 --> 01:02:38.074
classified ruling on March

01:02:44.625 --> 01:02:45.545
I don't know how that works.

01:02:46.646 --> 01:02:47.847
Jonah commented on Mastodon.

01:02:47.887 --> 01:02:48.967
He doesn't know how that works either,

01:02:48.987 --> 01:02:50.867
and we're both natural-born American

01:02:50.907 --> 01:02:53.389
citizens as far as I know.

01:02:53.429 --> 01:02:54.530
We're a very confusing country.

01:02:54.630 --> 01:02:59.192
But I think this is exciting news because

01:03:00.072 --> 01:03:01.353
it already failed to pass twice,

01:03:02.434 --> 01:03:05.936
and I have to assume that if it

01:03:05.956 --> 01:03:07.476
just full-on does not pass,

01:03:07.496 --> 01:03:09.197
like if they cannot get this thing passed

01:03:09.217 --> 01:03:17.782
through by the end of the month –

01:03:11.451 --> 01:03:13.411
then it's got a deadline.

01:03:13.492 --> 01:03:14.512
And I don't know what's going to happen

01:03:14.532 --> 01:03:14.853
when March,

01:03:14.873 --> 01:03:16.634
twenty twenty seven rolls around since

01:03:16.653 --> 01:03:18.795
apparently Pfizer can just decide to keep

01:03:18.815 --> 01:03:19.155
doing it.

01:03:19.655 --> 01:03:20.496
But I don't know.

01:03:20.815 --> 01:03:21.577
I think to me,

01:03:21.697 --> 01:03:24.077
I'm hopeful because this represents the

01:03:24.117 --> 01:03:25.259
first time in like.

01:03:26.217 --> 01:03:28.639
over twenty years i think that we might

01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:30.360
actually have a shot of getting this thing

01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:32.682
defeated um but that's where we're at

01:03:32.702 --> 01:03:33.784
right now those are kind of the facts

01:03:33.923 --> 01:03:36.585
is uh it failed to vote twice it's

01:03:36.606 --> 01:03:37.706
got an extension until the end of the

01:03:37.746 --> 01:03:40.769
month um it really needs to i mean

01:03:40.989 --> 01:03:43.632
no matter where you are on the spectrum

01:03:43.692 --> 01:03:44.873
i know i'm probably mostly talking to

01:03:44.893 --> 01:03:46.034
people who are like good this thing should

01:03:46.054 --> 01:03:48.014
die but i i also recognize there's some

01:03:48.054 --> 01:03:49.155
people who are like well you know

01:03:50.117 --> 01:03:51.938
there does need to be some stuff for

01:03:51.958 --> 01:03:52.938
national security, right?

01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:56.041
But this thing has been repeatedly abused

01:03:56.481 --> 01:03:57.862
for warrantless surveillance.

01:03:57.882 --> 01:03:58.222
Like again,

01:03:58.262 --> 01:03:59.543
the government is not supposed to collect

01:03:59.684 --> 01:04:02.085
data on American citizens and it finds all

01:04:02.106 --> 01:04:03.387
kinds of loopholes to do it anyways.

01:04:03.726 --> 01:04:05.047
This is actually the thing that like,

01:04:05.088 --> 01:04:07.630
they use this to buy location data from

01:04:07.670 --> 01:04:08.331
third parties.

01:04:09.050 --> 01:04:11.072
And I think that's one of the,

01:04:11.193 --> 01:04:12.653
it's funny is like the Democrats didn't

01:04:12.673 --> 01:04:13.934
even want to completely kill this thing.

01:04:13.974 --> 01:04:14.976
They just wanted to reform it.

01:04:14.996 --> 01:04:16.157
They're like, require a warrant,

01:04:16.476 --> 01:04:17.318
stop buying data.

01:04:18.217 --> 01:04:19.639
And the Republicans were like no.

01:04:20.018 --> 01:04:22.121
So I'm glad to see at least some

01:04:22.161 --> 01:04:23.902
Republicans agreed with this.

01:04:24.061 --> 01:04:26.202
So I think the one thing I wanted

01:04:26.222 --> 01:04:28.204
to add is where did it go?

01:04:28.264 --> 01:04:32.766
There was – basically they did – the

01:04:32.806 --> 01:04:34.148
Republicans did try to introduce some

01:04:34.188 --> 01:04:35.208
quote-unquote reforms,

01:04:35.349 --> 01:04:38.010
which were already existing things.

01:04:38.090 --> 01:04:39.311
Like where did it go here?

01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:42.081
Yeah.

01:04:42.442 --> 01:04:43.963
So the amendment contained a provision

01:04:43.983 --> 01:04:45.224
that was in essence a fake warrant

01:04:45.244 --> 01:04:45.684
requirement.

01:04:45.744 --> 01:04:46.686
It would have prohibited government

01:04:46.726 --> 01:04:48.567
officers from intentionally targeting

01:04:48.586 --> 01:04:49.608
Americans' communication without a

01:04:49.628 --> 01:04:51.710
warrant, which is already in the statute.

01:04:52.050 --> 01:04:53.672
It also offered the government a warrant

01:04:53.692 --> 01:04:55.153
path if agents had probable cause to

01:04:57.054 --> 01:04:58.577
suspect the subject is an agent of a

01:04:58.597 --> 01:04:59.056
foreign power,

01:04:59.358 --> 01:05:00.759
an authority that already exists.

01:05:00.778 --> 01:05:02.139
So basically they just wanted to reiterate

01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:03.581
things that were already in there without

01:05:03.641 --> 01:05:05.262
actually doing anything meaningful to rein

01:05:05.302 --> 01:05:05.523
it in.

01:05:06.304 --> 01:05:09.286
And just to drive home the point,

01:05:09.867 --> 01:05:10.307
ready to go.

01:05:10.688 --> 01:05:12.208
The FBI has used Section seven oh two

01:05:12.228 --> 01:05:13.510
to run warrantless queries on a U.S.

01:05:13.530 --> 01:05:13.871
senator,

01:05:14.150 --> 01:05:15.271
nineteen thousand donors to a

01:05:15.311 --> 01:05:16.172
congressional campaign,

01:05:16.432 --> 01:05:18.233
Black Lives Matter protesters and both

01:05:18.293 --> 01:05:20.195
sides of the January six capital attack.

01:05:20.836 --> 01:05:21.016
So.

01:05:22.619 --> 01:05:23.320
I don't know what to tell you.

01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:23.699
To me,

01:05:23.739 --> 01:05:25.860
this is pretty obviously unconstitutional

01:05:25.922 --> 01:05:27.443
and needs to be reigned at very least

01:05:27.842 --> 01:05:30.065
needs to be reined in regardless of where

01:05:30.085 --> 01:05:30.985
your political leaning is.

01:05:31.065 --> 01:05:33.847
But it might just die altogether.

01:05:34.088 --> 01:05:35.068
And I don't know.

01:05:35.188 --> 01:05:36.349
I guess we'll see what happens if it

01:05:36.389 --> 01:05:38.150
doesn't pass in March of next year rolls

01:05:38.170 --> 01:05:38.451
around.

01:05:38.530 --> 01:05:41.313
But yeah,

01:05:41.753 --> 01:05:43.855
I think that's all of that story.

01:05:44.155 --> 01:05:46.036
Did I did I miss anything, Jordan?

01:05:47.748 --> 01:05:50.331
I guess I just have questions that maybe

01:05:50.351 --> 01:05:52.432
people in the audience might also have.

01:05:52.572 --> 01:05:53.454
Yeah, go for it.

01:05:53.554 --> 01:05:54.315
I'm not a lawyer,

01:05:54.335 --> 01:05:55.054
but I'll do my best.

01:05:56.271 --> 01:05:56.512
Yeah.

01:05:56.572 --> 01:05:57.072
So like,

01:05:57.253 --> 01:05:58.853
I guess my question would be like,

01:05:59.034 --> 01:06:00.635
I thought that you did need a warrant

01:06:00.655 --> 01:06:01.996
to surveil people.

01:06:02.036 --> 01:06:05.478
Is this like a specific special case that

01:06:05.518 --> 01:06:07.780
people have to use like specifically or.

01:06:08.460 --> 01:06:08.739
Yeah.

01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:11.001
So section seven Oh two authorizes

01:06:11.041 --> 01:06:13.163
warrantless surveillance on non-Americans.

01:06:13.402 --> 01:06:15.284
And I know we've talked about this briefly

01:06:15.304 --> 01:06:17.005
in the past in relation to other stories.

01:06:17.465 --> 01:06:20.608
The loophole is that like the,

01:06:21.932 --> 01:06:23.476
When I text you, for example, I mean,

01:06:23.516 --> 01:06:24.199
we use Signal,

01:06:24.259 --> 01:06:25.461
so they can't see it anyways.

01:06:25.802 --> 01:06:26.684
But when I text you,

01:06:26.746 --> 01:06:28.028
since you're Australian...

01:06:29.186 --> 01:06:31.047
our communication crosses international

01:06:31.086 --> 01:06:33.188
borders and that's the justification the

01:06:33.288 --> 01:06:35.927
NSA uses to scoop up that surveillance or

01:06:35.967 --> 01:06:37.548
to scoop up that communication and say,

01:06:37.608 --> 01:06:38.489
we get to collect this.

01:06:39.009 --> 01:06:40.009
And in theory,

01:06:40.148 --> 01:06:41.690
they're probably supposed to throw away

01:06:41.710 --> 01:06:43.050
like my side of the conversation or

01:06:43.070 --> 01:06:44.909
something, but it, you know,

01:06:45.230 --> 01:06:47.590
it doesn't stop them from basically spying

01:06:47.610 --> 01:06:49.731
on me without a warrant to be just

01:06:49.751 --> 01:06:50.831
because I'm talking to you,

01:06:50.911 --> 01:06:52.572
even though they might not have a reason

01:06:52.592 --> 01:06:53.552
to suspect anything.

01:06:54.172 --> 01:06:54.552
They just,

01:06:54.891 --> 01:06:56.032
it crosses international borders.

01:06:56.052 --> 01:06:57.452
So yeah.

01:06:57.532 --> 01:06:57.652
Yeah.

01:06:58.722 --> 01:07:00.463
So wait, okay.

01:07:00.503 --> 01:07:02.324
So I,

01:07:02.344 --> 01:07:03.585
but they wouldn't be doing that to

01:07:03.664 --> 01:07:05.045
everybody automatically, right?

01:07:05.065 --> 01:07:05.985
Like it'd have to be like,

01:07:06.025 --> 01:07:07.166
if I was on a watch list,

01:07:07.246 --> 01:07:08.708
maybe they would consider doing that,

01:07:08.768 --> 01:07:08.967
right?

01:07:09.007 --> 01:07:09.568
Like, no.

01:07:10.407 --> 01:07:11.188
As far as I know,

01:07:11.329 --> 01:07:13.369
it's a like carte blanche across the

01:07:13.389 --> 01:07:13.849
board.

01:07:15.030 --> 01:07:16.670
They do not need a warrant to spy

01:07:16.771 --> 01:07:18.472
on any non-American citizen.

01:07:21.356 --> 01:07:21.516
Wow, okay.

01:07:22.016 --> 01:07:24.197
Yeah, which is kind of,

01:07:24.257 --> 01:07:25.018
it is very horrifying.

01:07:25.539 --> 01:07:26.978
And it's also kind of crazy to me

01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:27.940
that, you know,

01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:29.601
when I think about like the US landscape,

01:07:29.641 --> 01:07:32.202
like conservatives are so like,

01:07:32.802 --> 01:07:33.623
and I don't even mean this as a

01:07:33.682 --> 01:07:34.003
ding,

01:07:34.083 --> 01:07:35.384
like conservatives are so like

01:07:35.704 --> 01:07:37.985
pro-American, like Americans rights,

01:07:38.025 --> 01:07:39.146
like I'm a US citizen.

01:07:39.326 --> 01:07:40.706
I get all these wonderful freedoms and

01:07:40.746 --> 01:07:41.067
rights.

01:07:41.487 --> 01:07:42.947
Then why can't we agree on the basics

01:07:42.987 --> 01:07:43.268
of like,

01:07:43.347 --> 01:07:45.208
stop spying on your own citizens without a

01:07:45.248 --> 01:07:45.588
warrant?

01:07:46.369 --> 01:07:46.989
But for some reason,

01:07:47.030 --> 01:07:48.550
apparently we can't even get that far.

01:07:48.570 --> 01:07:49.391
So I don't know.

01:07:51.197 --> 01:07:51.438
I mean,

01:07:51.498 --> 01:07:55.059
I feel like spying on people that aren't

01:07:55.679 --> 01:07:57.420
American citizens is also kind of

01:07:57.460 --> 01:07:58.300
problematic too.

01:07:58.780 --> 01:08:00.481
I mean, I agree,

01:08:00.501 --> 01:08:01.581
but I'm trying to think of like the

01:08:01.661 --> 01:08:03.782
bare minimum base floor that we could all

01:08:03.822 --> 01:08:04.443
get to agree on.

01:08:04.503 --> 01:08:05.563
But apparently, you know,

01:08:06.664 --> 01:08:07.704
I guess the bar is in hell.

01:08:07.864 --> 01:08:08.684
It's so low.

01:08:08.724 --> 01:08:11.065
So I don't know.

01:08:11.106 --> 01:08:12.126
I'm very cynical about this stuff.

01:08:13.556 --> 01:08:15.456
So I guess another question that I have

01:08:15.536 --> 01:08:16.137
is, like,

01:08:16.877 --> 01:08:18.439
it seems like in this case it was,

01:08:18.519 --> 01:08:18.819
like,

01:08:19.238 --> 01:08:21.201
a lot of Republicans who were voting

01:08:21.261 --> 01:08:23.301
against this to block this.

01:08:24.542 --> 01:08:25.203
Is that normal?

01:08:25.222 --> 01:08:25.922
Is this, like,

01:08:25.943 --> 01:08:27.984
sort of somewhat of a bipartisan thing,

01:08:28.024 --> 01:08:28.244
like,

01:08:28.545 --> 01:08:30.565
wanting the NSA to surveil everyone or...?

01:08:32.386 --> 01:08:34.448
Yeah, so our – again,

01:08:34.488 --> 01:08:35.328
for foreign listeners,

01:08:36.050 --> 01:08:37.511
I know the US doesn't truly have like

01:08:37.530 --> 01:08:38.292
a left-wing party,

01:08:38.351 --> 01:08:41.073
but our Republicans are our conservative

01:08:41.094 --> 01:08:43.595
party and the Democrats are our more

01:08:43.695 --> 01:08:44.615
liberal party.

01:08:44.756 --> 01:08:45.497
I'll put it that way.

01:08:47.717 --> 01:08:51.220
And everybody – again,

01:08:51.360 --> 01:08:51.981
I hate to say it,

01:08:52.021 --> 01:08:52.662
but it is true.

01:08:52.702 --> 01:08:53.302
Here in America,

01:08:53.342 --> 01:08:55.363
things are so partisan that people

01:08:55.404 --> 01:08:57.024
typically vote along party lines.

01:08:57.166 --> 01:08:58.065
And so the Republicans,

01:08:58.086 --> 01:08:59.327
because they are more conservative,

01:08:59.747 --> 01:09:01.849
they tend to be a lot more like

01:09:01.849 --> 01:09:02.769
–

01:09:02.354 --> 01:09:04.697
you know, we, we need to give the,

01:09:04.737 --> 01:09:08.100
you know, the, I feel bad saying this,

01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:09.041
but this is their logic.

01:09:09.081 --> 01:09:09.701
And I swear to God,

01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:11.203
I'm not like trying to ding anybody.

01:09:11.682 --> 01:09:12.984
Um, they're very pro troops.

01:09:13.024 --> 01:09:13.944
They're very pro police.

01:09:13.984 --> 01:09:14.765
They're very pro,

01:09:14.826 --> 01:09:16.367
like our intelligence community is

01:09:16.407 --> 01:09:17.127
protecting us.

01:09:17.528 --> 01:09:18.668
And so we need to give them all

01:09:18.689 --> 01:09:20.770
the tools they can to protect us.

01:09:20.810 --> 01:09:21.671
And I've literally seen,

01:09:22.192 --> 01:09:23.252
I am still mad about this to this

01:09:23.273 --> 01:09:23.472
day.

01:09:24.012 --> 01:09:25.534
I literally saw there was a, uh,

01:09:26.488 --> 01:09:27.208
An opportunity,

01:09:27.328 --> 01:09:28.430
I don't remember how it got there,

01:09:28.470 --> 01:09:30.693
but basically there was a moment where

01:09:30.953 --> 01:09:32.654
somebody actually got a law all the way

01:09:32.715 --> 01:09:33.176
up to,

01:09:33.256 --> 01:09:34.356
or a bill all the way up to

01:09:34.377 --> 01:09:36.560
our Congress that basically said like,

01:09:38.213 --> 01:09:39.975
require, yeah,

01:09:40.055 --> 01:09:42.796
require police to get a warrant instead of

01:09:42.836 --> 01:09:43.456
buying data.

01:09:44.775 --> 01:09:45.536
It was literally that.

01:09:46.396 --> 01:09:48.556
And one of the Republicans who voted

01:09:48.596 --> 01:09:50.018
against it literally said, he's like,

01:09:50.057 --> 01:09:52.639
well, our enemies like China, for example,

01:09:52.738 --> 01:09:53.958
they can start up a shell company or

01:09:53.979 --> 01:09:54.920
they don't even just start up shell

01:09:54.939 --> 01:09:55.159
company.

01:09:55.420 --> 01:09:57.000
They can buy this data from any data

01:09:57.020 --> 01:09:57.520
broker, right?

01:09:57.560 --> 01:09:58.240
Just like we can.

01:09:58.581 --> 01:10:00.100
So if we require our people to get

01:10:00.140 --> 01:10:00.480
a warrant,

01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:01.782
that puts us on unequal footing.

01:10:02.202 --> 01:10:03.443
And I have never wanted to scream at

01:10:03.462 --> 01:10:05.904
my screen so hard because I remember

01:10:05.923 --> 01:10:06.444
thinking, I'm like,

01:10:06.463 --> 01:10:07.804
then the solution here is to pass an

01:10:07.944 --> 01:10:10.225
actual data privacy law so that nobody can

01:10:10.265 --> 01:10:11.145
buy the freaking data.

01:10:11.485 --> 01:10:13.407
But apparently that's just, I don't know,

01:10:13.466 --> 01:10:15.167
that requires too many IQ points, I guess.

01:10:15.228 --> 01:10:17.207
But anyways, personal opinion aside, like,

01:10:17.228 --> 01:10:18.088
yeah, that's, it's...

01:10:18.908 --> 01:10:21.390
Republicans generally tend to be a lot

01:10:21.409 --> 01:10:24.872
more lenient on military and intelligence

01:10:24.912 --> 01:10:27.833
and law enforcement and argue that we need

01:10:27.854 --> 01:10:29.954
to give them as much help as they

01:10:29.975 --> 01:10:31.176
can to do their jobs,

01:10:31.296 --> 01:10:33.056
which includes putting as few restrictions

01:10:33.096 --> 01:10:34.136
on them as possible.

01:10:34.176 --> 01:10:35.297
So, yeah.

01:10:36.801 --> 01:10:37.280
I see.

01:10:37.360 --> 01:10:37.720
Okay.

01:10:37.962 --> 01:10:38.082
Yeah,

01:10:38.101 --> 01:10:40.283
I did mention in here was like the

01:10:40.983 --> 01:10:43.484
House Freedom Caucus Republicans.

01:10:43.863 --> 01:10:45.345
So I don't know if that sounds like

01:10:45.364 --> 01:10:47.104
they might be like a libertarian type

01:10:47.244 --> 01:10:47.645
people.

01:10:47.765 --> 01:10:48.546
I'm not really sure.

01:10:49.326 --> 01:10:49.466
Yeah,

01:10:49.485 --> 01:10:51.867
I'm not super familiar with them either.

01:10:53.908 --> 01:10:54.649
I saw that too.

01:10:54.948 --> 01:10:57.369
It looks like I'd have to look more

01:10:57.409 --> 01:10:57.710
into them.

01:11:00.699 --> 01:11:00.880
Well,

01:11:01.100 --> 01:11:02.480
it's good that they voted against it

01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:02.862
anyway.

01:11:03.481 --> 01:11:04.802
I think, you know,

01:11:04.842 --> 01:11:07.024
if we can put aside all the other

01:11:07.225 --> 01:11:09.686
partisan stuff and be like, you know,

01:11:09.707 --> 01:11:11.347
privacy is an issue that's important.

01:11:11.387 --> 01:11:15.030
Let's not surveil everybody and collect

01:11:15.051 --> 01:11:16.692
all their information unnecessarily.

01:11:17.813 --> 01:11:19.154
I think we should try and

01:11:22.336 --> 01:11:24.817
against that which is uh unfortunate i'm

01:11:24.877 --> 01:11:28.137
sorry this i'm sorry it's so partisan yeah

01:11:28.537 --> 01:11:30.198
um because i think that definitely does

01:11:30.238 --> 01:11:32.238
make things more difficult you know if

01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:33.599
there's one party that's trying to get

01:11:33.618 --> 01:11:34.939
something passed it's like we don't want

01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:36.600
to do that because it's by those people

01:11:36.699 --> 01:11:39.381
it's like uh that's not really the point

01:11:39.501 --> 01:11:41.541
but it should be based on the merit

01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:43.202
of what they're trying to pass not like

01:11:43.242 --> 01:11:46.582
you know the party yeah it's

01:11:47.627 --> 01:11:48.988
It's extremely frustrating because that's

01:11:49.029 --> 01:11:50.331
exactly what's happening is like somebody

01:11:50.350 --> 01:11:51.931
will put like this and, you know, like,

01:11:51.971 --> 01:11:52.212
hey,

01:11:52.653 --> 01:11:54.253
spying on people without a warrant is bad.

01:11:54.534 --> 01:11:55.716
Well, I don't like you,

01:11:55.775 --> 01:11:56.655
so I don't like your bill.

01:11:56.676 --> 01:11:57.778
And it's like, dude, come on.

01:11:57.858 --> 01:11:59.298
But I do want to point out on

01:11:59.319 --> 01:11:59.639
that note,

01:11:59.658 --> 01:12:01.060
there are some pretty big names in here

01:12:01.081 --> 01:12:02.322
that I think are really telling.

01:12:02.502 --> 01:12:02.862
Yeah.

01:12:03.802 --> 01:12:05.203
Not to get too deep into politics,

01:12:05.224 --> 01:12:07.305
but like Thomas Massey of Kentucky,

01:12:07.405 --> 01:12:08.867
I'm going to assume he's a Republican

01:12:08.907 --> 01:12:10.507
because Kentucky is a very deeply red

01:12:10.547 --> 01:12:10.847
state.

01:12:11.208 --> 01:12:13.090
Chip Roy of Texas is a Republican.

01:12:14.011 --> 01:12:14.791
Lauren Bober,

01:12:14.911 --> 01:12:16.653
who used to be like one of Trump's

01:12:16.693 --> 01:12:17.472
biggest supporters.

01:12:17.493 --> 01:12:18.833
I don't know if she still is.

01:12:18.894 --> 01:12:20.456
He's kind of losing some of his key

01:12:20.475 --> 01:12:20.916
supporters.

01:12:20.975 --> 01:12:23.278
But I just point that out as like,

01:12:23.297 --> 01:12:23.438
man,

01:12:23.457 --> 01:12:24.759
these are big people that I would not

01:12:24.819 --> 01:12:25.819
normally expect to like.

01:12:26.684 --> 01:12:28.364
vote against the party line.

01:12:28.484 --> 01:12:31.006
So that's probably more indicative of like

01:12:31.086 --> 01:12:32.605
larger us politics,

01:12:32.666 --> 01:12:33.527
but it's good to see that.

01:12:33.567 --> 01:12:34.006
Like you said,

01:12:34.027 --> 01:12:35.327
like there are some people who are just

01:12:35.368 --> 01:12:35.967
like, no, this,

01:12:36.127 --> 01:12:38.009
this is not a partisan issue.

01:12:38.029 --> 01:12:38.889
We need to fix this.

01:12:38.969 --> 01:12:41.069
So hopefully it won't pass and then we'll

01:12:41.090 --> 01:12:41.489
see what happens.

01:12:42.694 --> 01:12:44.695
Yeah, I think it is kind of frustrating.

01:12:45.537 --> 01:12:47.337
But you know, I hope it doesn't.

01:12:47.759 --> 01:12:49.900
I guess we're looking at that on Tuesday.

01:12:50.060 --> 01:12:51.002
Oh, no, sorry, not Tuesday.

01:12:51.061 --> 01:12:52.203
Sorry, at the end of the month.

01:12:53.224 --> 01:12:54.904
So hopefully we get an update for that

01:12:55.685 --> 01:12:59.470
in a next This Week in Privacy episode.

01:13:00.050 --> 01:13:02.291
um but yeah i think we're trying to

01:13:02.310 --> 01:13:05.453
stay tuned for updates definitely make

01:13:05.472 --> 01:13:07.434
sure to subscribe and uh add this to

01:13:07.453 --> 01:13:10.355
your podcast app um but i mean yeah

01:13:10.555 --> 01:13:12.497
i think it's uh it's important we're

01:13:12.516 --> 01:13:14.097
trying to stay um when we talk about

01:13:14.118 --> 01:13:15.139
this sort of stuff you know we're just

01:13:15.158 --> 01:13:19.140
talking about this from the privacy angle

01:13:19.320 --> 01:13:20.801
um so you know we're not trying to

01:13:22.109 --> 01:13:24.051
Because I know I personally don't talk

01:13:24.091 --> 01:13:27.091
about US politics because I just feel like

01:13:27.131 --> 01:13:29.253
I'm going to offend someone.

01:13:29.573 --> 01:13:30.974
I'm going to always offend someone if I

01:13:31.033 --> 01:13:31.574
say something.

01:13:31.654 --> 01:13:35.457
So thanks for kind of explaining that

01:13:35.516 --> 01:13:36.216
because...

01:13:36.877 --> 01:13:39.679
I definitely have less experience.

01:13:39.719 --> 01:13:39.899
I mean,

01:13:39.958 --> 01:13:42.400
I know a bit about US politics because

01:13:43.220 --> 01:13:44.341
it's kind of unavoidable.

01:13:45.943 --> 01:13:46.823
So yeah,

01:13:47.023 --> 01:13:48.744
but I think it's good to explain things.

01:13:49.704 --> 01:13:51.326
But I guess moving on to this next

01:13:51.345 --> 01:13:51.987
story here,

01:13:52.567 --> 01:13:55.109
unless you have anything more to add.

01:13:55.149 --> 01:13:57.029
Nope, that's all I got.

01:13:57.130 --> 01:13:57.510
All right.

01:13:58.010 --> 01:14:02.212
So this next story here is about the

01:14:02.372 --> 01:14:03.993
EU age checking app.

01:14:04.434 --> 01:14:05.255
So basically...

01:14:08.324 --> 01:14:09.645
Yeah, we talk about this a lot,

01:14:09.666 --> 01:14:11.386
you know, age verification stuff.

01:14:11.587 --> 01:14:15.088
And now there's basically a movement in

01:14:15.109 --> 01:14:18.652
the EU to keep kids safe online with

01:14:18.891 --> 01:14:21.353
this new EU age checking app.

01:14:22.774 --> 01:14:24.255
Quoting from the article here from

01:14:24.314 --> 01:14:24.795
Politico,

01:14:25.756 --> 01:14:28.238
the European Union's age verification app

01:14:28.358 --> 01:14:30.759
is ready to be rolled out to protect

01:14:30.798 --> 01:14:31.520
kids online.

01:14:32.824 --> 01:14:36.926
The Bloc chief Ursula von der Leyen said

01:14:36.985 --> 01:14:39.627
Wednesday, sorry if I messed up your name,

01:14:40.747 --> 01:14:43.127
our European age verification app is

01:14:43.247 --> 01:14:45.007
technically ready and will soon be

01:14:45.047 --> 01:14:47.408
available for citizens to use,

01:14:47.488 --> 01:14:49.988
the European Commission president said at

01:14:50.029 --> 01:14:50.909
a press conference.

01:14:51.590 --> 01:14:54.050
And basically, according to this article,

01:14:54.090 --> 01:14:55.711
the app is a critical part of the

01:14:55.810 --> 01:14:56.650
EU's plans

01:14:57.030 --> 01:14:58.873
to keep children safe online.

01:14:58.953 --> 01:15:01.556
The technology would allow people to prove

01:15:01.596 --> 01:15:04.081
their age through the government approved

01:15:04.301 --> 01:15:05.523
verified systems.

01:15:05.983 --> 01:15:07.765
The EU said it has ensured it would

01:15:07.905 --> 01:15:10.309
also protect citizens' privacy rights and

01:15:10.369 --> 01:15:11.131
personal data.

01:15:13.003 --> 01:15:13.123
Now,

01:15:13.184 --> 01:15:15.185
I think that last sentence right there,

01:15:15.845 --> 01:15:18.447
that remains to be seen because basically

01:15:18.487 --> 01:15:20.887
every single age verification system we've

01:15:20.908 --> 01:15:24.510
seen so far has been not great from

01:15:24.550 --> 01:15:25.671
a privacy perspective.

01:15:27.192 --> 01:15:28.493
And quoting the article again,

01:15:28.533 --> 01:15:30.052
we're holding online platforms accountable

01:15:30.073 --> 01:15:33.114
that do not protect enough of our kids,

01:15:33.194 --> 01:15:33.475
maybe.

01:15:34.195 --> 01:15:35.115
Might have been a misquote there.

01:15:35.456 --> 01:15:37.637
The new age verification solution and the

01:15:37.658 --> 01:15:40.019
enforcement of our rules go hand in hand.

01:15:41.658 --> 01:15:45.600
so basically uh this app is ready to

01:15:45.621 --> 01:15:47.983
be downloaded um and just kind of

01:15:48.002 --> 01:15:50.284
highlighting a post here um someone on our

01:15:50.345 --> 01:15:52.865
forum posted a link of their blog

01:15:52.886 --> 01:15:56.930
basically going through sort of the uh the

01:15:57.329 --> 01:15:59.912
new eu age verification app um so if

01:15:59.931 --> 01:16:01.493
you haven't heard of them before privacy

01:16:01.533 --> 01:16:03.755
dad they do sort of like parenting related

01:16:03.795 --> 01:16:06.716
privacy stuff um and they've been

01:16:08.390 --> 01:16:10.051
you know, posting, uh,

01:16:10.131 --> 01:16:11.930
an update here about, uh,

01:16:11.951 --> 01:16:13.351
the EU age verification app.

01:16:13.372 --> 01:16:14.693
So you can kind of see what the

01:16:14.853 --> 01:16:16.073
flow will look like.

01:16:16.853 --> 01:16:19.493
Um, and apparently according to them,

01:16:19.533 --> 01:16:21.814
they were able to download the APK and,

01:16:22.975 --> 01:16:24.256
you know, test out the app.

01:16:24.917 --> 01:16:27.157
A lot of the features aren't a hundred

01:16:27.176 --> 01:16:28.677
percent ready and it was, you know,

01:16:28.738 --> 01:16:29.837
has a testing mode,

01:16:29.878 --> 01:16:32.179
which you can basically see how it would

01:16:32.238 --> 01:16:32.659
work.

01:16:33.300 --> 01:16:33.439
Um,

01:16:35.649 --> 01:16:40.291
It does seem like you need to scan

01:16:40.310 --> 01:16:42.231
your ID into this app.

01:16:42.292 --> 01:16:46.935
So I mean, that's fine, I guess,

01:16:46.994 --> 01:16:48.755
if you're sending it directly to the EU

01:16:48.814 --> 01:16:50.876
government and there's no third party

01:16:50.916 --> 01:16:51.877
company involved here.

01:16:53.478 --> 01:16:57.539
But I guess that would be like a

01:16:57.600 --> 01:16:59.461
separate governmental body that's been

01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:00.461
established for this.

01:17:00.581 --> 01:17:02.402
I'm not entirely sure about the whole

01:17:02.442 --> 01:17:03.563
process behind this.

01:17:05.485 --> 01:17:07.567
but you can kind of see the age

01:17:07.606 --> 01:17:09.528
verification credential stuff.

01:17:09.868 --> 01:17:09.969
Um,

01:17:09.988 --> 01:17:11.810
so basically how it's meant to work is

01:17:13.331 --> 01:17:17.972
you visit a website or an app and

01:17:18.033 --> 01:17:20.375
you can use this, uh,

01:17:20.795 --> 01:17:23.195
use this app to basically prove that

01:17:23.235 --> 01:17:24.197
you're over eighteen.

01:17:24.216 --> 01:17:25.917
It doesn't share your age,

01:17:25.957 --> 01:17:27.998
it just shares the proof basically.

01:17:29.100 --> 01:17:29.239
Um,

01:17:31.277 --> 01:17:32.858
But it does look like you need to

01:17:32.877 --> 01:17:34.920
take a photo of your identity document and

01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:36.240
record a video of yourself.

01:17:37.180 --> 01:17:41.123
So that's not great from a biometric

01:17:41.163 --> 01:17:41.864
standpoint.

01:17:45.146 --> 01:17:47.007
So yeah, that kind of sucks.

01:17:48.548 --> 01:17:51.771
There's a lot of different things here.

01:17:52.792 --> 01:17:58.416
So basically it's just a move to basically

01:17:58.456 --> 01:17:59.056
change the...

01:18:01.069 --> 01:18:01.189
Oh,

01:18:01.208 --> 01:18:02.489
there's someone in the chat who asked a

01:18:02.510 --> 01:18:03.069
question here.

01:18:03.630 --> 01:18:05.631
Probably outside the stream subjects,

01:18:05.692 --> 01:18:07.252
but I noticed that hosts are using Apple

01:18:07.292 --> 01:18:07.773
products.

01:18:08.274 --> 01:18:10.074
Is there a privacy related reason or just

01:18:10.534 --> 01:18:13.837
personal preference of hardware?

01:18:13.917 --> 01:18:14.497
Personally,

01:18:14.797 --> 01:18:18.541
I'm not going to talk about personally,

01:18:18.621 --> 01:18:20.582
but I'm just going to say for work,

01:18:21.002 --> 01:18:23.923
this is, you know,

01:18:24.064 --> 01:18:25.465
I need to use DaVinci Resolve.

01:18:25.524 --> 01:18:26.166
I need to use...

01:18:28.583 --> 01:18:29.984
applications that aren't available on

01:18:30.045 --> 01:18:32.306
Linux, which I would love to use Linux.

01:18:32.988 --> 01:18:34.850
I think it'd be great if I could

01:18:34.930 --> 01:18:35.510
use Linux.

01:18:35.770 --> 01:18:37.992
But as far as I'm aware,

01:18:39.713 --> 01:18:41.815
there's still a lot to go on DaVinci

01:18:41.836 --> 01:18:42.275
Resolve.

01:18:42.336 --> 01:18:44.377
It's quite annoying to use on Linux.

01:18:44.417 --> 01:18:45.958
It's missing some stuff.

01:18:47.320 --> 01:18:48.801
It is less stable.

01:18:48.881 --> 01:18:49.842
It's less supported.

01:18:50.743 --> 01:18:52.664
I use Affinity for all the graphic design

01:18:52.685 --> 01:18:54.606
stuff we do here at Privacy Guides.

01:18:54.886 --> 01:18:55.046
And

01:18:56.265 --> 01:18:57.086
As far as I'm aware,

01:18:57.126 --> 01:18:58.466
that is also quite finicky.

01:19:01.108 --> 01:19:01.507
Generally,

01:19:01.587 --> 01:19:05.088
I want to be focusing less on the

01:19:05.969 --> 01:19:06.949
technical issues,

01:19:06.989 --> 01:19:09.490
like having a bug happen in DaVinci

01:19:09.530 --> 01:19:12.252
Resolve where like I can't render a video

01:19:12.452 --> 01:19:13.391
or like something like that,

01:19:13.551 --> 01:19:14.972
less if possible.

01:19:15.092 --> 01:19:18.594
So, you know, I think

01:19:20.289 --> 01:19:22.413
you kind of have to use what you

01:19:22.434 --> 01:19:22.835
have to.

01:19:22.935 --> 01:19:23.135
I mean,

01:19:23.256 --> 01:19:25.300
I don't have any personal information on

01:19:25.319 --> 01:19:26.041
this computer.

01:19:26.240 --> 01:19:27.423
It's like a work computer.

01:19:27.644 --> 01:19:29.908
So I'm not really that bothered by using

01:19:29.927 --> 01:19:31.171
an Apple product to do this.

01:19:31.511 --> 01:19:31.652
Um,

01:19:33.552 --> 01:19:35.173
So I think you just have to

01:19:35.734 --> 01:19:37.054
compartmentalize things.

01:19:37.434 --> 01:19:39.175
But sorry, I kind of got off track.

01:19:39.215 --> 01:19:40.635
I just wanted to quickly answer that

01:19:40.694 --> 01:19:44.115
question because I guess Nate has got a

01:19:44.155 --> 01:19:47.077
MacBook and I'm using an Apple avatar.

01:19:47.117 --> 01:19:48.318
So I guess that was kind of a

01:19:48.358 --> 01:19:49.637
question that needed to be answered.

01:19:50.899 --> 01:19:51.359
But yeah,

01:19:51.399 --> 01:19:52.779
do you have any thoughts on that or

01:19:52.859 --> 01:19:54.880
on the EU age verification stuff?

01:19:56.867 --> 01:19:57.828
Um, well,

01:19:57.847 --> 01:19:58.868
I guess let me start with the question.

01:19:59.149 --> 01:19:59.509
Um,

01:19:59.529 --> 01:20:01.490
so I am fortunate enough to have one

01:20:01.570 --> 01:20:04.233
of each computer and this is also a

01:20:04.252 --> 01:20:04.774
work computer.

01:20:04.873 --> 01:20:05.333
This was,

01:20:06.234 --> 01:20:07.595
this was given to me by privacy guides

01:20:07.615 --> 01:20:11.899
because my windows computer is from,

01:20:11.998 --> 01:20:12.359
I think.

01:20:12.640 --> 01:20:13.381
So in tech years,

01:20:13.421 --> 01:20:14.421
it's starting to get up there.

01:20:15.042 --> 01:20:16.342
I've had a couple of close calls with

01:20:16.382 --> 01:20:16.842
it already.

01:20:16.962 --> 01:20:18.184
And so this was kind of like, Hey,

01:20:19.204 --> 01:20:20.627
We should get me a MacBook just in

01:20:20.686 --> 01:20:22.828
case the day comes when my Windows

01:20:22.868 --> 01:20:24.489
computer doesn't boot and I'm not

01:20:25.190 --> 01:20:27.453
completely up a creek.

01:20:28.054 --> 01:20:29.055
So this is kind of my backup,

01:20:29.095 --> 01:20:29.895
my computer.

01:20:30.336 --> 01:20:32.097
But then also like my Windows computer is

01:20:32.118 --> 01:20:33.599
like I've got all the cables dressed in

01:20:33.639 --> 01:20:34.359
and it's really nice.

01:20:34.380 --> 01:20:35.001
So it's like, cool,

01:20:35.041 --> 01:20:36.421
the Windows computer can stay there.

01:20:36.822 --> 01:20:37.922
And then I'll use this one when I

01:20:37.944 --> 01:20:39.885
travel or for the podcast or something.

01:20:40.626 --> 01:20:41.226
Um,

01:20:41.247 --> 01:20:42.847
cause I probably should do more work at

01:20:42.868 --> 01:20:44.470
a standing desk, but I don't cause my,

01:20:44.630 --> 01:20:46.891
my actual desk has like three screens and

01:20:47.011 --> 01:20:47.172
well,

01:20:47.233 --> 01:20:49.954
two plus the laptop and I have studio

01:20:49.975 --> 01:20:50.815
monitors and stuff.

01:20:50.876 --> 01:20:52.016
So yeah.

01:20:52.217 --> 01:20:52.358
Um,

01:20:53.578 --> 01:20:56.921
I try to use Linux more for the

01:20:57.061 --> 01:20:58.304
actual, um,

01:20:59.324 --> 01:21:00.985
like basically anything that doesn't

01:21:01.006 --> 01:21:02.127
involve editing or gaming.

01:21:03.168 --> 01:21:03.469
I, um,

01:21:04.707 --> 01:21:05.106
honestly,

01:21:05.287 --> 01:21:07.627
I prefer windows just out of habit just

01:21:07.648 --> 01:21:08.728
because I'm so used to it.

01:21:08.868 --> 01:21:09.547
And also, again,

01:21:09.587 --> 01:21:11.529
I do some gaming and windows generally

01:21:11.569 --> 01:21:12.729
handles gaming better than Mac.

01:21:13.550 --> 01:21:13.810
Um,

01:21:13.850 --> 01:21:15.390
I've heard gaming's come a really long way

01:21:15.409 --> 01:21:15.909
on Linux.

01:21:16.109 --> 01:21:18.671
I know Nick from the Linux experiment, uh,

01:21:18.711 --> 01:21:20.612
edits on DaVinci, but I also,

01:21:21.192 --> 01:21:22.992
I was an audio guy for like,

01:21:23.011 --> 01:21:24.832
I was a professional audio guy for years

01:21:24.893 --> 01:21:26.193
before I, I took this job.

01:21:26.252 --> 01:21:28.993
So, um, I, uh,

01:21:30.769 --> 01:21:33.649
I have amassed a collection of plugins and

01:21:33.710 --> 01:21:35.650
workflow that are very specific to

01:21:35.671 --> 01:21:35.970
Windows.

01:21:36.011 --> 01:21:37.952
So even if I moved over to Linux

01:21:37.992 --> 01:21:39.051
for DaVinci,

01:21:39.572 --> 01:21:40.752
there's a really good chance that a lot

01:21:40.773 --> 01:21:42.033
of the plugins I rely on would not

01:21:42.073 --> 01:21:44.394
move with me.

01:21:44.434 --> 01:21:45.154
Yeah, I don't know.

01:21:45.234 --> 01:21:46.675
But I...

01:21:48.972 --> 01:21:49.212
Yeah.

01:21:49.273 --> 01:21:50.172
I mean, that's kind of my workflow.

01:21:50.193 --> 01:21:53.613
I, I use it largely for, um, production.

01:21:54.134 --> 01:21:55.614
I use windows for production and gaming.

01:21:56.435 --> 01:21:57.494
I use the plugins,

01:21:57.595 --> 01:21:58.755
which is why I'm still on windows.

01:21:59.154 --> 01:22:00.055
And also I use cubes,

01:22:00.095 --> 01:22:01.416
which is that's never going to do

01:22:01.456 --> 01:22:02.855
production or gaming to begin with.

01:22:03.115 --> 01:22:03.235
Um,

01:22:03.275 --> 01:22:05.457
not unless somebody wants to donate like

01:22:05.537 --> 01:22:06.737
a, a thousand dollar computer.

01:22:06.777 --> 01:22:08.078
That's just super souped up and I can

01:22:08.097 --> 01:22:09.658
make GPU pass through work reliably.

01:22:10.117 --> 01:22:11.658
which I've heard doesn't always, so yeah.

01:22:12.997 --> 01:22:13.998
And also I hate to say it,

01:22:14.019 --> 01:22:16.039
but like, so when I got this computer,

01:22:16.699 --> 01:22:18.301
I used it as my main computer for

01:22:18.341 --> 01:22:19.461
like a week or two just to,

01:22:19.501 --> 01:22:20.942
and I edited like three or four videos

01:22:21.002 --> 01:22:22.662
just to make sure like this will do

01:22:22.703 --> 01:22:23.403
what we need it to.

01:22:23.443 --> 01:22:24.844
This is an acceptable backup.

01:22:25.564 --> 01:22:27.385
And I, it's weird.

01:22:27.425 --> 01:22:29.024
Cause in college I had a Mac and

01:22:29.045 --> 01:22:29.506
it was fine.

01:22:29.685 --> 01:22:29.905
You know,

01:22:29.945 --> 01:22:31.405
like I remember when I switched back to

01:22:31.445 --> 01:22:32.226
windows, I was like,

01:22:32.606 --> 01:22:33.987
which I did mostly because it was cheaper.

01:22:34.046 --> 01:22:34.247
Right.

01:22:34.327 --> 01:22:35.587
Like when my Mac died, I was like,

01:22:35.608 --> 01:22:36.547
yeah, I'll just go back to windows.

01:22:37.108 --> 01:22:37.969
And I remember thinking like,

01:22:38.009 --> 01:22:39.429
I don't understand why people are so mad.

01:22:39.469 --> 01:22:40.409
Like you can switch between them.

01:22:40.449 --> 01:22:40.890
They're fine.

01:22:40.909 --> 01:22:41.390
They're easy.

01:22:41.729 --> 01:22:42.609
But for some reason,

01:22:43.030 --> 01:22:44.570
when I was using this recently,

01:22:44.690 --> 01:22:45.230
I was just like,

01:22:45.270 --> 01:22:47.051
these keys are driving me crazy and I

01:22:47.112 --> 01:22:47.372
hate it.

01:22:47.471 --> 01:22:48.853
And like, even now I'd like,

01:22:49.332 --> 01:22:50.734
occasionally I put things in the wrong

01:22:50.793 --> 01:22:51.694
place or I like,

01:22:52.094 --> 01:22:53.333
apparently there's this thing where if you

01:22:53.354 --> 01:22:54.654
tap too hard, it like,

01:22:55.215 --> 01:22:57.655
does something different and i don't know

01:22:57.676 --> 01:22:59.555
if i'm making sense but i i tap

01:22:59.576 --> 01:23:01.657
things really hard and it does not work

01:23:01.697 --> 01:23:04.297
well so yeah it's just the workflow is

01:23:04.457 --> 01:23:05.377
i i could get used to it if

01:23:05.457 --> 01:23:06.677
i had to but it's definitely i was

01:23:06.717 --> 01:23:07.597
just kind of like you know what it

01:23:07.618 --> 01:23:08.779
works i'm going back to windows to be

01:23:08.798 --> 01:23:12.260
honest so i don't know um macs are

01:23:12.300 --> 01:23:14.100
definitely much more private and secure i

01:23:14.119 --> 01:23:16.381
would argue and certainly a lot less

01:23:16.400 --> 01:23:18.480
annoying with the ai um this thing did

01:23:18.520 --> 01:23:20.101
not come with apple intelligence enabled

01:23:20.962 --> 01:23:24.043
and uh you know apple intelligence is also

01:23:24.064 --> 01:23:25.524
probably more useful than copilot i would

01:23:25.545 --> 01:23:26.784
imagine haven't used either but i would

01:23:26.805 --> 01:23:29.886
imagine so i don't know um yeah this

01:23:30.466 --> 01:23:34.689
it's not okay well either way um yeah

01:23:34.770 --> 01:23:37.291
i mean it's it's uh it's it's not

01:23:37.331 --> 01:23:39.351
my daily driver um and i don't even

01:23:39.372 --> 01:23:41.113
mind using linux it's just it's it's a

01:23:41.132 --> 01:23:42.935
work computer mostly and it just happens

01:23:42.954 --> 01:23:47.096
to fit my workflow so anyways um yeah

01:23:47.136 --> 01:23:48.837
going back to the the eu story so

01:23:50.323 --> 01:23:51.623
Um, yeah, I mean,

01:23:51.703 --> 01:23:52.724
I think we just wanted to share this

01:23:52.743 --> 01:23:54.164
because it's a bit of an update to

01:23:54.284 --> 01:23:55.625
all this age verification stuff.

01:23:56.064 --> 01:23:59.787
The way I understand it is that, um,

01:23:59.846 --> 01:24:02.688
this is an app that can be used

01:24:02.828 --> 01:24:03.287
as is,

01:24:03.828 --> 01:24:06.969
but it's also designed to function as a

01:24:07.029 --> 01:24:09.010
framework for other companies to build on

01:24:09.069 --> 01:24:09.529
top of.

01:24:09.689 --> 01:24:10.189
I could be wrong,

01:24:10.229 --> 01:24:11.690
but this is how I understand it is

01:24:11.831 --> 01:24:14.252
basically it's like, it's almost like, um,

01:24:14.311 --> 01:24:16.172
a lot of you guys might remember during

01:24:16.193 --> 01:24:16.953
COVID, um,

01:24:17.869 --> 01:24:19.911
Apple and Google released like a built-in

01:24:19.951 --> 01:24:21.091
contact tracing thing.

01:24:22.332 --> 01:24:26.176
And that way other states could build on

01:24:26.216 --> 01:24:26.716
top of that.

01:24:26.756 --> 01:24:27.716
And it was kind of like, look,

01:24:28.056 --> 01:24:31.618
here's a relatively private and secure,

01:24:31.738 --> 01:24:33.619
certainly more so than whatever crap your

01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:35.221
underpaid IT guys are going to cook up

01:24:35.282 --> 01:24:36.962
in the ten minutes you give them.

01:24:37.682 --> 01:24:38.583
like, it's kind of like,

01:24:38.644 --> 01:24:40.126
here's a framework to start with.

01:24:40.166 --> 01:24:41.346
So you can at least start off on

01:24:41.367 --> 01:24:43.007
a good foot and build from there.

01:24:43.609 --> 01:24:44.829
And I feel like that's kind of what

01:24:44.850 --> 01:24:45.230
this is,

01:24:45.270 --> 01:24:46.492
is the same thing is where it's like,

01:24:46.532 --> 01:24:47.672
you could use this as is,

01:24:48.154 --> 01:24:50.395
but you could also like roll your own

01:24:50.636 --> 01:24:51.396
local version.

01:24:51.417 --> 01:24:52.978
Um, if I understand it correctly,

01:24:53.057 --> 01:24:53.618
I could be wrong,

01:24:53.639 --> 01:24:54.880
but I feel like I saw some people

01:24:54.920 --> 01:24:55.341
saying that.

01:24:55.881 --> 01:24:57.542
Um,

01:24:57.563 --> 01:24:58.564
the last thing I do want to know

01:24:58.724 --> 01:24:59.185
real quick,

01:24:59.204 --> 01:25:01.287
I want to pull this up is, uh,

01:25:03.086 --> 01:25:03.487
For the record,

01:25:03.546 --> 01:25:04.768
I don't know who this person is.

01:25:04.787 --> 01:25:06.509
I don't know their credentials,

01:25:07.569 --> 01:25:08.831
and I haven't seen a whole lot of

01:25:08.850 --> 01:25:09.811
people verifying this,

01:25:09.851 --> 01:25:10.773
but I also haven't seen a whole lot

01:25:10.792 --> 01:25:11.934
of people contesting this.

01:25:12.594 --> 01:25:15.856
But this claims to be a security

01:25:15.877 --> 01:25:17.837
consultant who said that they found

01:25:17.978 --> 01:25:19.899
potential vulnerabilities in the EU's age

01:25:19.939 --> 01:25:21.400
verification app in under two minutes.

01:25:21.581 --> 01:25:24.524
So one of them is that I guess

01:25:24.543 --> 01:25:25.864
you can delete the PIN.

01:25:27.078 --> 01:25:28.399
Like, there's a way, yeah,

01:25:28.439 --> 01:25:29.860
the attacker can simply remove the pin

01:25:29.881 --> 01:25:32.061
values from the file and restart the app.

01:25:32.382 --> 01:25:33.363
After choosing a different pin,

01:25:33.403 --> 01:25:34.724
the app presents the credentials created

01:25:34.764 --> 01:25:35.805
under the old profile and lets the

01:25:35.845 --> 01:25:36.905
attacker present them as valid.

01:25:37.586 --> 01:25:38.646
And I think they said there were some

01:25:38.686 --> 01:25:38.966
others.

01:25:39.027 --> 01:25:41.609
But I guess all that to say is,

01:25:41.628 --> 01:25:43.250
like, if you don't have to use it,

01:25:43.289 --> 01:25:43.850
I mean, obviously,

01:25:43.909 --> 01:25:45.390
we don't think you should use this kind

01:25:45.412 --> 01:25:46.332
of stuff in the first place, right?

01:25:46.372 --> 01:25:46.492
Like,

01:25:46.511 --> 01:25:50.435
we are very anti-age verification people.

01:25:51.095 --> 01:25:52.515
Jordan made an excellent point earlier

01:25:52.555 --> 01:25:53.618
when they said that, like,

01:25:54.838 --> 01:25:55.880
this may have been before we were live,

01:25:55.899 --> 01:25:56.579
but I think we were live.

01:25:57.140 --> 01:25:59.063
But Jordan pointed out that, like,

01:25:59.162 --> 01:26:00.783
you know, parental controls exist.

01:26:01.045 --> 01:26:01.945
They're already there.

01:26:02.006 --> 01:26:03.067
They're already fine.

01:26:04.328 --> 01:26:05.189
So, but...

01:26:06.778 --> 01:26:07.219
Yeah,

01:26:07.319 --> 01:26:09.640
if you're – I mean we're not telling

01:26:09.661 --> 01:26:10.301
you to break the law,

01:26:10.341 --> 01:26:11.904
but if you're in an area where this

01:26:11.944 --> 01:26:12.805
is not required yet,

01:26:12.904 --> 01:26:14.627
definitely I would not advocate for

01:26:14.667 --> 01:26:17.591
downloading it because it seems like there

01:26:17.610 --> 01:26:18.931
might potentially be vulnerabilities.

01:26:18.971 --> 01:26:20.554
So I would wait for more people to

01:26:22.936 --> 01:26:24.538
do some research and kind of look into

01:26:24.559 --> 01:26:28.564
this and –

01:26:26.347 --> 01:26:27.149
Hopefully they'll fix these

01:26:27.168 --> 01:26:27.689
vulnerabilities.

01:26:27.729 --> 01:26:28.170
Cause I mean, it's,

01:26:28.250 --> 01:26:29.490
it's like the very least they can do,

01:26:29.570 --> 01:26:29.770
right?

01:26:29.791 --> 01:26:30.412
If they're going to be like,

01:26:30.471 --> 01:26:31.733
everybody has to give us our ID.

01:26:31.813 --> 01:26:32.873
Like the very least they could do is

01:26:33.054 --> 01:26:34.574
actually secure it in a way where you

01:26:34.614 --> 01:26:36.877
can't just like delete the pin and restart

01:26:36.917 --> 01:26:37.278
the app.

01:26:37.318 --> 01:26:38.958
Like that's completely insane if true.

01:26:38.998 --> 01:26:42.421
So I don't know.

01:26:42.502 --> 01:26:44.344
I think actually we're, yeah, we're,

01:26:44.363 --> 01:26:45.364
we're going to talk a little bit more

01:26:45.385 --> 01:26:48.207
about age verification here,

01:26:48.247 --> 01:26:50.069
here in the U S so I want

01:26:50.088 --> 01:26:50.510
to point out,

01:26:51.757 --> 01:26:53.078
this is a brand new hot off the

01:26:53.118 --> 01:26:53.759
presses story.

01:26:53.859 --> 01:26:54.640
And as a result,

01:26:55.039 --> 01:26:56.661
it's probably sitting in my RSS feed as

01:26:56.720 --> 01:26:57.121
I say this,

01:26:57.161 --> 01:26:59.282
but I have not seen any of our

01:26:59.481 --> 01:26:59.862
usual,

01:26:59.902 --> 01:27:01.783
more reputable outlets cover the story.

01:27:03.203 --> 01:27:04.585
So unfortunately I had to go with a

01:27:04.625 --> 01:27:08.067
press release from a Congressman from New

01:27:08.106 --> 01:27:10.608
Jersey, Josh Gothamire, Gotham here.

01:27:10.828 --> 01:27:13.710
I don't know, but yeah,

01:27:14.270 --> 01:27:14.949
no offense to him,

01:27:14.970 --> 01:27:15.831
but I'm just saying like,

01:27:15.850 --> 01:27:16.631
this is a press release.

01:27:16.671 --> 01:27:17.452
It's going to be a little bit,

01:27:19.564 --> 01:27:21.286
what's what I'm looking for polished in

01:27:21.827 --> 01:27:24.247
overly optimistic and maybe not the most

01:27:24.469 --> 01:27:25.729
balanced piece out there.

01:27:25.770 --> 01:27:26.909
So take this with a grain of salt,

01:27:27.430 --> 01:27:29.051
but apparently the U S has introduced a

01:27:29.112 --> 01:27:32.113
bipartisan parents decide act to protect

01:27:32.154 --> 01:27:32.975
kids online.

01:27:33.755 --> 01:27:35.957
And, uh, this is basically the, uh,

01:27:35.997 --> 01:27:37.597
the operating system level age

01:27:37.618 --> 01:27:39.359
verification, which again,

01:27:39.538 --> 01:27:40.680
I keep calling it age verification.

01:27:40.800 --> 01:27:41.801
I should be calling it identity

01:27:41.860 --> 01:27:43.162
verification because it will require

01:27:43.261 --> 01:27:44.662
everyone to do it.

01:27:44.882 --> 01:27:45.663
Not just kids.

01:27:46.465 --> 01:27:46.664
Um,

01:27:47.551 --> 01:27:47.851
But yeah,

01:27:47.912 --> 01:27:49.533
it will require operating system

01:27:49.554 --> 01:27:50.875
developers such as Apple and Google to

01:27:50.914 --> 01:27:52.556
verify users' ages when setting up a new

01:27:52.577 --> 01:27:53.698
device rather than relying on

01:27:53.757 --> 01:27:54.618
self-reported ages,

01:27:55.220 --> 01:27:56.961
allows parents to set appropriate content

01:27:56.980 --> 01:27:57.921
controls from the start,

01:27:58.863 --> 01:28:00.564
ensure that age and parental settings

01:28:00.744 --> 01:28:02.707
securely flow to apps and AI platforms,

01:28:03.046 --> 01:28:04.368
and prevent children from accessing

01:28:04.408 --> 01:28:06.730
harmful or explicit content by creating

01:28:06.751 --> 01:28:07.230
consistent,

01:28:07.251 --> 01:28:08.953
trusted standards across platforms.

01:28:09.634 --> 01:28:09.654
I...

01:28:12.073 --> 01:28:15.617
I feel especially cynical about age

01:28:15.636 --> 01:28:16.837
verification in the US.

01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:21.421
I will admit I got this from another

01:28:21.440 --> 01:28:21.740
video.

01:28:21.921 --> 01:28:22.902
This is not an original thought,

01:28:22.942 --> 01:28:23.903
but it's a good thought.

01:28:24.382 --> 01:28:24.762
First of all,

01:28:24.783 --> 01:28:26.384
we don't even have a national privacy law.

01:28:27.125 --> 01:28:27.425
Nothing.

01:28:28.126 --> 01:28:29.065
Nothing at all.

01:28:29.367 --> 01:28:31.927
So do whatever you want with this data.

01:28:31.988 --> 01:28:33.288
I think just last week we covered a

01:28:33.550 --> 01:28:33.909
story.

01:28:34.170 --> 01:28:35.110
It was either last week or the week

01:28:35.131 --> 01:28:35.430
before.

01:28:35.751 --> 01:28:39.073
We covered how the governor of...

01:28:40.069 --> 01:28:42.831
wisconsin i think it was vetoed a state

01:28:42.871 --> 01:28:45.731
level identity verification law because

01:28:45.771 --> 01:28:49.913
he's like we don't have um he's like

01:28:49.974 --> 01:28:51.095
this this thing doesn't have any

01:28:51.114 --> 01:28:53.615
protections against like selling the data

01:28:53.697 --> 01:28:55.938
or securing the data like there's none of

01:28:55.957 --> 01:28:57.559
that and and that's true at a national

01:28:57.578 --> 01:28:59.859
level so first of all there's that um

01:29:00.922 --> 01:29:04.024
I will forever remain cynical that schools

01:29:04.045 --> 01:29:05.405
have data breaches left and right,

01:29:05.506 --> 01:29:06.626
and nobody seems to care,

01:29:07.145 --> 01:29:10.167
but somehow encryption and you know,

01:29:10.247 --> 01:29:11.588
all this is what's putting the kids at

01:29:11.649 --> 01:29:11.908
risk.

01:29:11.988 --> 01:29:14.430
Not the fact that the LAP or not

01:29:14.550 --> 01:29:14.951
LAPD,

01:29:14.970 --> 01:29:17.011
but the LA school district just leaked the

01:29:17.072 --> 01:29:17.671
date of birth,

01:29:17.792 --> 01:29:19.653
email address and home address of every

01:29:19.693 --> 01:29:20.793
child in the city.

01:29:21.173 --> 01:29:22.954
No, it's, this is the problem here.

01:29:23.454 --> 01:29:25.336
I'm being very sarcastic in case you can't

01:29:25.355 --> 01:29:25.515
tell.

01:29:26.077 --> 01:29:26.537
And, um,

01:29:27.746 --> 01:29:29.769
There's also the lawsuit just the other

01:29:29.788 --> 01:29:33.012
week where Meta and Google got legally

01:29:33.033 --> 01:29:34.695
found to have addictive algorithms.

01:29:34.756 --> 01:29:35.396
And I think-

01:29:37.146 --> 01:29:38.127
again, not an original thought,

01:29:38.148 --> 01:29:39.649
but I like this thought that I've been

01:29:39.668 --> 01:29:41.489
attached to lately is the idea of like,

01:29:41.789 --> 01:29:44.652
it's so ridiculous that we're saying that

01:29:44.671 --> 01:29:45.912
this is only bad for kids.

01:29:46.353 --> 01:29:48.113
But once, once you're an adult, it's fine.

01:29:48.173 --> 01:29:48.453
Like you,

01:29:48.554 --> 01:29:49.935
you can go ahead and let these companies

01:29:49.954 --> 01:29:53.115
abuse you and just mistreat you and use

01:29:53.136 --> 01:29:53.556
your data,

01:29:54.277 --> 01:29:55.238
but you have to be a certain age.

01:29:55.297 --> 01:29:55.877
It's just, I don't know.

01:29:55.938 --> 01:29:56.078
It's,

01:29:57.038 --> 01:29:58.319
I think we're regulating the wrong thing.

01:29:58.418 --> 01:29:59.140
And I think, um,

01:30:00.494 --> 01:30:01.895
Jordan and I had this discussion recently

01:30:01.935 --> 01:30:02.157
too,

01:30:02.216 --> 01:30:04.458
where in a lot of other countries and

01:30:04.498 --> 01:30:05.359
maybe here in the US,

01:30:05.680 --> 01:30:06.600
sometimes here in the US,

01:30:07.020 --> 01:30:08.641
when you set up a new device,

01:30:08.783 --> 01:30:09.662
it prompts you like,

01:30:09.762 --> 01:30:10.743
is this for a child?

01:30:10.804 --> 01:30:11.704
And if you click yes,

01:30:12.206 --> 01:30:14.568
it will tell you about all of the

01:30:14.608 --> 01:30:16.408
potential parental controls that exist.

01:30:17.310 --> 01:30:18.530
And I really think that's a much better

01:30:18.570 --> 01:30:19.190
way to go.

01:30:19.310 --> 01:30:20.912
Like, I like parts of this, right?

01:30:20.972 --> 01:30:21.132
Like,

01:30:21.432 --> 01:30:22.833
allow parents to set age-appropriate

01:30:22.873 --> 01:30:23.573
content controls.

01:30:23.993 --> 01:30:25.716
I don't know who's not allowing parents to

01:30:25.735 --> 01:30:26.716
do that, but let's pretend.

01:30:27.457 --> 01:30:28.617
Ensure the age and parental control

01:30:28.636 --> 01:30:30.018
settings securely flow to the apps and AI

01:30:30.037 --> 01:30:30.538
platforms.

01:30:31.519 --> 01:30:31.960
You know, like,

01:30:32.060 --> 01:30:33.600
I think those are good things, of course.

01:30:34.280 --> 01:30:35.881
But I don't understand why we can't start

01:30:35.921 --> 01:30:36.141
there.

01:30:36.202 --> 01:30:36.341
Like,

01:30:36.382 --> 01:30:37.863
why don't we start by empowering the

01:30:37.882 --> 01:30:39.664
parents to know that these controls exist?

01:30:40.505 --> 01:30:41.546
Because, again, you know, like...

01:30:43.136 --> 01:30:44.278
I'm so tired of talking about age

01:30:44.319 --> 01:30:45.899
verification, but you know,

01:30:45.921 --> 01:30:47.021
this whole like prevent children from

01:30:47.122 --> 01:30:49.003
accessing harmful or explicit content.

01:30:49.305 --> 01:30:49.505
Okay.

01:30:49.545 --> 01:30:50.747
What about classical artwork?

01:30:50.787 --> 01:30:51.006
Right?

01:30:51.067 --> 01:30:52.948
Like that's a class, a common example,

01:30:53.009 --> 01:30:55.192
like ninety percent of these classical era

01:30:55.231 --> 01:30:56.713
Da Vinci's and whatever,

01:30:56.753 --> 01:30:58.896
like they're both men and women are

01:30:58.957 --> 01:31:00.198
partially or fully naked.

01:31:00.927 --> 01:31:02.229
So like it,

01:31:02.328 --> 01:31:03.990
does that count as explicit content or is

01:31:04.030 --> 01:31:05.972
that like valid because the artwork,

01:31:05.993 --> 01:31:07.673
you know, I just watched them.

01:31:07.753 --> 01:31:08.914
Obviously this is not a one-to-one,

01:31:09.376 --> 01:31:10.516
but I just watched the sci-fi movie the

01:31:10.537 --> 01:31:12.498
other week called any aura that is like

01:31:12.998 --> 01:31:14.380
soul crushingly depressing,

01:31:15.280 --> 01:31:16.703
but it had artistic value.

01:31:16.743 --> 01:31:17.783
Like, yeah, it was a really sad,

01:31:17.823 --> 01:31:18.623
depressing movie,

01:31:19.125 --> 01:31:20.926
but it had an artistic merit to it.

01:31:20.987 --> 01:31:21.707
It wasn't just like,

01:31:21.726 --> 01:31:22.908
I'm going to go watch something depressing

01:31:22.948 --> 01:31:23.548
for the sake of it.

01:31:24.088 --> 01:31:25.570
So it's, it's very like

01:31:27.020 --> 01:31:27.881
I use that as an example.

01:31:28.121 --> 01:31:29.202
It's just very like, I don't know.

01:31:29.221 --> 01:31:31.904
I don't know what I'm trying to say.

01:31:32.224 --> 01:31:32.824
It's getting late.

01:31:32.885 --> 01:31:36.408
But it's so depressing that we have no

01:31:36.528 --> 01:31:38.109
protection for data in the first place.

01:31:38.469 --> 01:31:40.411
And now we want to pass this national

01:31:40.451 --> 01:31:42.693
law that says turn over your ID when

01:31:42.853 --> 01:31:45.055
states can't even agree what counts as

01:31:45.074 --> 01:31:45.935
harmful content.

01:31:46.836 --> 01:31:48.296
And, um, yeah, you know, Swiss,

01:31:48.557 --> 01:31:49.417
Swiss kill said here,

01:31:49.457 --> 01:31:50.760
like whose responsibility is it to raise

01:31:50.779 --> 01:31:51.199
their child?

01:31:51.460 --> 01:31:51.860
To be honest,

01:31:51.881 --> 01:31:53.322
it's not even responsibilities for me.

01:31:53.662 --> 01:31:54.363
It's like, right.

01:31:54.403 --> 01:31:54.922
Like to me,

01:31:54.983 --> 01:31:57.886
it feels so taking away the agency from

01:31:57.905 --> 01:31:59.567
the parents to say like, okay,

01:31:59.606 --> 01:32:00.507
the government's going to tell you what

01:32:00.528 --> 01:32:02.689
your kids can look at now.

01:32:02.729 --> 01:32:03.890
Like, that's really what we need to start,

01:32:03.951 --> 01:32:05.112
how we need to start wording this because

01:32:05.152 --> 01:32:06.613
I guarantee you parents on both sides of

01:32:06.632 --> 01:32:08.175
the aisle are not going to be cool

01:32:08.194 --> 01:32:08.534
with that.

01:32:09.796 --> 01:32:11.417
And it's just, it's, uh, yeah,

01:32:11.476 --> 01:32:12.377
it's so frustrating to me.

01:32:12.478 --> 01:32:13.038
I don't like

01:32:14.769 --> 01:32:17.372
I don't – nobody is saying the internet

01:32:17.393 --> 01:32:17.853
is perfect,

01:32:17.893 --> 01:32:19.395
but I think most of us can agree

01:32:19.435 --> 01:32:20.797
that this is not the way to solve

01:32:20.837 --> 01:32:20.957
it.

01:32:21.037 --> 01:32:21.720
So I don't know.

01:32:21.739 --> 01:32:22.461
I feel like I'm just going to keep

01:32:22.501 --> 01:32:23.743
going in circles if I keep talking,

01:32:23.842 --> 01:32:24.663
but yeah.

01:32:24.724 --> 01:32:24.904
Yeah.

01:32:26.085 --> 01:32:26.284
Yeah,

01:32:26.345 --> 01:32:28.746
I think they should rename it to

01:32:29.445 --> 01:32:33.346
Corporations Decide Act because a lot of

01:32:33.407 --> 01:32:34.127
times, you know,

01:32:34.806 --> 01:32:36.908
like a lot of these things that this

01:32:38.769 --> 01:32:39.389
Gottheimer,

01:32:40.569 --> 01:32:43.789
Josh Gottheimer guy is announcing in this

01:32:43.850 --> 01:32:45.069
press release are like, you know,

01:32:45.711 --> 01:32:47.850
require operating system developers like

01:32:47.911 --> 01:32:50.731
Apple and Google to verify users' ages

01:32:50.832 --> 01:32:52.511
when setting up a new device rather than

01:32:52.572 --> 01:32:54.453
relying on self-reported ages.

01:32:55.854 --> 01:32:57.935
Um, that's fine, I guess.

01:32:58.055 --> 01:32:58.314
I mean,

01:32:58.755 --> 01:33:00.854
but that's also all that information is

01:33:00.895 --> 01:33:02.336
going to be throughout flowing through

01:33:02.395 --> 01:33:03.456
Google and Apple.

01:33:03.515 --> 01:33:04.576
Is that really what we want?

01:33:04.636 --> 01:33:06.077
All of this personal information,

01:33:06.117 --> 01:33:08.896
like flowing through big tech corporations

01:33:08.957 --> 01:33:10.018
who, you know,

01:33:10.137 --> 01:33:13.298
we know Apple and Google are not,

01:33:13.319 --> 01:33:13.719
they don't,

01:33:13.759 --> 01:33:15.298
they don't have a respect for our

01:33:15.319 --> 01:33:15.899
information.

01:33:15.918 --> 01:33:16.439
So, um, you know,

01:33:18.920 --> 01:33:20.159
I don't think that's a great idea,

01:33:20.541 --> 01:33:21.520
but it's also just, you know,

01:33:22.457 --> 01:33:24.899
These app stores, like it says in here,

01:33:25.180 --> 01:33:27.702
allow parents to set age-appropriate

01:33:27.721 --> 01:33:29.162
content controls from the start,

01:33:29.243 --> 01:33:32.045
including limiting access to social media

01:33:32.145 --> 01:33:33.426
apps and AI platforms.

01:33:34.445 --> 01:33:36.106
So a lot of times that's going to

01:33:36.146 --> 01:33:38.488
be done through an app store.

01:33:38.988 --> 01:33:41.211
And like we saw with the app store,

01:33:41.291 --> 01:33:42.492
I believe it's called the App Store

01:33:42.532 --> 01:33:44.033
Accountability Act.

01:33:44.493 --> 01:33:45.394
Am I correct in that?

01:33:45.413 --> 01:33:46.375
Okay.

01:33:46.414 --> 01:33:47.154
I think so.

01:33:47.295 --> 01:33:48.355
If we're thinking of the same one, yeah.

01:33:49.395 --> 01:33:49.614
Right.

01:33:49.715 --> 01:33:50.036
Yeah.

01:33:50.155 --> 01:33:52.117
And that one was also trying to be

01:33:52.157 --> 01:33:53.917
passed in the U S and I think

01:33:54.498 --> 01:33:56.279
it's, this is like almost a similar thing.

01:33:56.319 --> 01:33:56.779
Like it's,

01:33:56.980 --> 01:33:58.702
it's kind of pushing this onto the app

01:33:58.721 --> 01:34:00.422
store, which we've talked about before,

01:34:00.502 --> 01:34:00.962
but like,

01:34:02.564 --> 01:34:04.326
and Nate mentioned a little bit there, um,

01:34:04.365 --> 01:34:04.905
like, you know,

01:34:05.046 --> 01:34:08.349
how do we know what they consider is

01:34:09.368 --> 01:34:10.229
mature or like,

01:34:10.289 --> 01:34:12.212
how do we know what they're choosing to

01:34:12.252 --> 01:34:14.012
take down and not allow people to access

01:34:14.113 --> 01:34:15.394
is, um,

01:34:17.028 --> 01:34:19.208
age appropriate like who decides that um

01:34:19.288 --> 01:34:21.449
so that's another another slope of things

01:34:22.350 --> 01:34:26.791
um I think you know there's definitely

01:34:27.931 --> 01:34:30.832
easier ways to do this than having to

01:34:30.993 --> 01:34:36.114
do such aggressive measures um but I think

01:34:37.595 --> 01:34:40.095
it kind of does take the agency away

01:34:40.155 --> 01:34:42.476
from parents a little bit because like I

01:34:42.497 --> 01:34:45.217
think you know it's definitely a thing

01:34:45.238 --> 01:34:45.497
where

01:34:46.837 --> 01:34:48.337
parents have very different ways of

01:34:48.557 --> 01:34:49.679
raising their children, right?

01:34:49.698 --> 01:34:52.841
Like some people will do something a

01:34:52.902 --> 01:34:55.023
certain way and some people will be the

01:34:55.063 --> 01:34:56.003
complete opposite of that.

01:34:57.645 --> 01:34:58.326
So I think, you know,

01:34:58.445 --> 01:35:03.189
forcing people to do things a specific way

01:35:03.250 --> 01:35:05.470
and to have access to certain stuff is

01:35:06.452 --> 01:35:07.112
interesting.

01:35:07.712 --> 01:35:09.994
I think there's different ways of doing

01:35:10.034 --> 01:35:12.976
that from a parenting perspective.

01:35:14.341 --> 01:35:15.801
Um, so I dunno,

01:35:15.881 --> 01:35:17.042
I think a lot of times though,

01:35:17.162 --> 01:35:18.702
you know, maybe we shouldn't be giving,

01:35:19.662 --> 01:35:19.841
I mean,

01:35:19.881 --> 01:35:21.842
this is completely a personal opinion,

01:35:21.922 --> 01:35:24.643
but maybe we shouldn't be giving children,

01:35:25.043 --> 01:35:26.064
you know,

01:35:26.083 --> 01:35:28.043
devices that can just access the entire

01:35:28.104 --> 01:35:28.503
internet.

01:35:28.524 --> 01:35:31.585
Because I know when I was like younger,

01:35:32.324 --> 01:35:34.865
uh, having access to the, to the internet,

01:35:35.246 --> 01:35:37.345
unrestricted access to the internet was

01:35:37.886 --> 01:35:40.106
probably not the greatest thing for my

01:35:40.527 --> 01:35:41.087
development.

01:35:41.127 --> 01:35:41.367
Right.

01:35:41.587 --> 01:35:43.568
And I'm sure many people who are like,

01:35:43.608 --> 01:35:43.828
you know,

01:35:45.859 --> 01:35:48.940
iPad kids or like Gen Z type people

01:35:50.221 --> 01:35:52.203
might also like share the same thing.

01:35:52.243 --> 01:35:55.765
Like basically having answers to any

01:35:55.786 --> 01:35:57.868
question and, you know,

01:35:58.969 --> 01:36:02.952
access to anything at any point is not

01:36:03.431 --> 01:36:06.154
a great thing in some cases.

01:36:06.654 --> 01:36:08.255
So, you know, I think that's,

01:36:08.636 --> 01:36:10.457
that might be something that needs to be

01:36:10.516 --> 01:36:13.359
tackled from a different angle from like

01:36:13.399 --> 01:36:14.239
parents or,

01:36:15.765 --> 01:36:19.248
parental controls um but I don't think

01:36:19.429 --> 01:36:21.851
it's I don't know I don't think this

01:36:21.891 --> 01:36:23.895
should be up to the government to decide

01:36:24.295 --> 01:36:27.038
um so and it doesn't really seem like

01:36:27.078 --> 01:36:29.280
it respects people's privacy anyway so

01:36:31.423 --> 01:36:33.365
yeah I don't really have any more to

01:36:33.466 --> 01:36:33.966
add here

01:36:36.215 --> 01:36:36.475
Yeah.

01:36:36.534 --> 01:36:37.895
I don't, I don't think I do either.

01:36:38.115 --> 01:36:39.496
It's just, um,

01:36:39.555 --> 01:36:41.195
I think the thing I'll end with is

01:36:41.337 --> 01:36:42.497
if you're in the U S uh,

01:36:42.676 --> 01:36:44.337
definitely contact your representatives.

01:36:44.556 --> 01:36:46.417
I certainly will be, um,

01:36:46.457 --> 01:36:48.819
this coming week and, uh, you know,

01:36:48.878 --> 01:36:51.600
try to outline, I would argue,

01:36:51.640 --> 01:36:53.380
try to outline why you're against this.

01:36:53.819 --> 01:36:54.239
Um,

01:36:54.279 --> 01:36:55.240
I don't know if that will increase your

01:36:55.341 --> 01:36:55.600
odds,

01:36:55.640 --> 01:36:56.940
but I feel like it would be a

01:36:56.961 --> 01:36:58.081
lot more effective instead of just be

01:36:58.122 --> 01:36:59.341
like, Hey, I'm against this thing.

01:36:59.782 --> 01:37:00.061
Be like,

01:37:00.181 --> 01:37:01.563
I'm against this thing because it takes

01:37:01.582 --> 01:37:02.762
away agency from the parents.

01:37:02.962 --> 01:37:03.082
It,

01:37:03.483 --> 01:37:04.944
there's no meaningful protection of the

01:37:04.963 --> 01:37:06.385
data, uh, you know,

01:37:06.484 --> 01:37:07.164
all these kinds of like,

01:37:07.225 --> 01:37:08.225
maybe we'll get lucky.

01:37:08.326 --> 01:37:10.146
And maybe some of these politicians will

01:37:10.287 --> 01:37:11.847
read, I mean, obviously they won't,

01:37:11.908 --> 01:37:13.069
their aides will read this,

01:37:13.328 --> 01:37:13.929
but maybe some of their,

01:37:14.310 --> 01:37:15.911
their assistants will read some of these

01:37:15.951 --> 01:37:17.171
responses and just be like, Oh,

01:37:17.251 --> 01:37:17.551
you know what?

01:37:17.572 --> 01:37:19.512
These are like legitimate concerns.

01:37:19.552 --> 01:37:20.092
And,

01:37:20.212 --> 01:37:21.713
and I think also spreading awareness

01:37:21.793 --> 01:37:22.234
around us.

01:37:22.253 --> 01:37:22.373
Like,

01:37:22.594 --> 01:37:23.694
I know I'm always the first one to

01:37:23.715 --> 01:37:25.136
be like, Hey, contact your politicians,

01:37:25.176 --> 01:37:26.037
but, um,

01:37:26.957 --> 01:37:29.497
I really think telling the parents around

01:37:29.518 --> 01:37:29.978
you,

01:37:29.997 --> 01:37:31.719
this takes away your agency as a parent.

01:37:32.238 --> 01:37:33.559
What happens when there's a data breach

01:37:33.599 --> 01:37:34.760
and your ID gets leaked?

01:37:35.380 --> 01:37:37.761
I think those are things that will get

01:37:37.780 --> 01:37:39.240
their attention and get them to sit up

01:37:39.301 --> 01:37:41.601
and realize, oh, yeah,

01:37:41.662 --> 01:37:44.283
maybe this isn't the best way to go

01:37:44.323 --> 01:37:44.722
about this.

01:37:44.743 --> 01:37:46.524
Because a lot of people really don't see

01:37:47.083 --> 01:37:48.024
what the issue is, right?

01:37:48.244 --> 01:37:50.805
There's all these false equivalencies,

01:37:50.824 --> 01:37:51.005
like, oh,

01:37:51.024 --> 01:37:52.206
you have to show ID to go into

01:37:52.225 --> 01:37:52.805
a bar.

01:37:54.247 --> 01:37:55.226
But it's just...

01:37:56.519 --> 01:37:57.538
Yeah.

01:37:57.578 --> 01:38:01.300
So and also real quick,

01:38:02.020 --> 01:38:03.520
Swiss Kill said here is, you know,

01:38:03.560 --> 01:38:04.780
it's more effective than stop that.

01:38:05.081 --> 01:38:05.981
I also want to point out, like.

01:38:07.282 --> 01:38:08.021
Be nice to people,

01:38:08.042 --> 01:38:09.141
because if you just send them an angry

01:38:09.162 --> 01:38:11.222
message about like you're an idiot and

01:38:11.262 --> 01:38:12.363
this is the dumbest law ever,

01:38:12.422 --> 01:38:13.163
like they're just going to put you on

01:38:13.184 --> 01:38:13.724
the block list.

01:38:13.764 --> 01:38:13.863
Well,

01:38:13.884 --> 01:38:15.043
I don't think legally they can block you,

01:38:15.064 --> 01:38:15.963
but they're just going to ignore you.

01:38:16.043 --> 01:38:17.005
So, yeah,

01:38:17.104 --> 01:38:18.345
my mom used to say you catch more

01:38:18.364 --> 01:38:19.385
flies with honey than vinegar.

01:38:19.545 --> 01:38:22.286
So, yeah, I don't know.

01:38:25.444 --> 01:38:26.824
Could you maybe offer some...

01:38:27.685 --> 01:38:29.686
How exactly can you get in contact with

01:38:30.608 --> 01:38:31.769
this person in particular?

01:38:33.689 --> 01:38:36.192
That's a good question.

01:38:36.452 --> 01:38:36.652
Hold on.

01:38:36.671 --> 01:38:37.512
Let me look it up here because I

01:38:37.552 --> 01:38:37.832
did...

01:38:38.412 --> 01:38:39.474
I'm not going to show my own blog,

01:38:39.493 --> 01:38:41.615
but I did write this really long opinion

01:38:41.636 --> 01:38:42.676
piece on my own blog.

01:38:43.216 --> 01:38:44.337
And I did include...

01:38:46.006 --> 01:38:48.828
Um, so congress.gov, house.gov,

01:38:48.868 --> 01:38:51.511
senate.gov are all websites you can use to

01:38:51.551 --> 01:38:53.532
find your state level politicians in the U

01:38:53.752 --> 01:38:55.293
S which you probably want those people

01:38:55.333 --> 01:38:57.354
right now because, um,

01:38:57.855 --> 01:38:59.157
this is a national law.

01:38:59.697 --> 01:39:03.119
There's also common cause.org and usa.gov

01:39:03.199 --> 01:39:04.940
are some additional websites to help you

01:39:04.961 --> 01:39:07.382
figure out who are your representatives,

01:39:07.403 --> 01:39:08.623
which honestly, if you just web search,

01:39:08.663 --> 01:39:10.265
like who are my political representatives,

01:39:10.404 --> 01:39:12.067
usually several websites will pop up and

01:39:12.606 --> 01:39:13.488
you will, um,

01:39:14.488 --> 01:39:15.649
In case anyone is not aware,

01:39:15.969 --> 01:39:17.210
you will have to put in your address

01:39:17.250 --> 01:39:19.332
because that's what determines what

01:39:19.372 --> 01:39:20.832
districts you fall in and stuff.

01:39:20.913 --> 01:39:23.595
But yeah, I don't know.

01:39:23.615 --> 01:39:24.235
To me, it's worth it.

01:39:26.858 --> 01:39:27.057
Yeah.

01:39:27.198 --> 01:39:29.259
And, and real quick, Canada said,

01:39:29.340 --> 01:39:30.600
I was under the impression that Google and

01:39:30.619 --> 01:39:31.900
Apple oppose age verification.

01:39:32.220 --> 01:39:33.001
They all do,

01:39:33.061 --> 01:39:34.542
which I think should be extremely telling

01:39:34.582 --> 01:39:36.203
that like meta doesn't want to do this.

01:39:36.523 --> 01:39:37.944
Open AI is one of the companies that's

01:39:37.963 --> 01:39:39.364
been lobbying these groups behind the

01:39:39.385 --> 01:39:39.805
scenes.

01:39:39.965 --> 01:39:41.326
I forget where that came from recently,

01:39:41.685 --> 01:39:42.065
but yeah,

01:39:42.145 --> 01:39:44.608
like Google and Apple have openly pushed

01:39:44.648 --> 01:39:46.908
back against the app store accountability

01:39:47.029 --> 01:39:47.229
act.

01:39:47.548 --> 01:39:51.171
Like nobody wants to be responsible for

01:39:51.230 --> 01:39:51.671
this data.

01:39:52.546 --> 01:39:54.686
which to me is extremely telling.

01:39:54.987 --> 01:39:57.507
Like the one time that all these companies

01:39:57.547 --> 01:39:58.929
that are just built on violating your

01:39:58.969 --> 01:40:00.710
privacy, monetizing your data,

01:40:00.970 --> 01:40:02.610
collecting every... Like meta...

01:40:04.076 --> 01:40:08.077
built an app that purposely opened up

01:40:08.216 --> 01:40:10.337
ports that it doesn't normally open up to

01:40:10.398 --> 01:40:12.658
get around the sandboxing built into the

01:40:12.677 --> 01:40:12.917
phone.

01:40:12.997 --> 01:40:14.899
I think this was on Android,

01:40:14.939 --> 01:40:15.738
but it may have been iPhone.

01:40:15.759 --> 01:40:16.378
It may have been both.

01:40:16.479 --> 01:40:16.899
I can't remember.

01:40:17.378 --> 01:40:17.859
But either way,

01:40:18.019 --> 01:40:20.439
like I forget the exact details of the

01:40:20.460 --> 01:40:20.659
story,

01:40:20.979 --> 01:40:23.740
but they purposely found ways to get out

01:40:23.801 --> 01:40:25.841
of the sandbox and bypass the protections

01:40:25.881 --> 01:40:27.641
built into the device to spy on the

01:40:27.761 --> 01:40:28.981
other apps on your phone.

01:40:29.561 --> 01:40:30.943
This is the same company who said,

01:40:31.023 --> 01:40:32.422
we don't want to be responsible for this.

01:40:32.523 --> 01:40:34.344
And I think that should be extremely,

01:40:34.923 --> 01:40:35.864
extremely telling.

01:40:36.885 --> 01:40:38.006
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

01:40:38.025 --> 01:40:38.626
Tip your servers.

01:40:41.787 --> 01:40:43.347
Yeah, that's all I got.

01:40:43.368 --> 01:40:46.168
Nice.

01:40:46.368 --> 01:40:46.710
Yeah.

01:40:46.770 --> 01:40:49.051
So I guess with that being said...

01:40:51.328 --> 01:40:53.048
I guess in a minute we can start

01:40:53.088 --> 01:40:54.710
taking fewer questions.

01:40:54.890 --> 01:40:56.671
We've already kind of had a couple here.

01:40:57.671 --> 01:40:58.993
So if you've been holding on to any

01:40:59.033 --> 01:41:01.595
questions about any of the stories we've

01:41:01.614 --> 01:41:02.796
been talking about so far,

01:41:02.956 --> 01:41:04.617
go ahead and start leaving them.

01:41:04.676 --> 01:41:05.837
You can either leave them in the chat

01:41:05.858 --> 01:41:07.418
or you can also leave them in the

01:41:07.559 --> 01:41:09.760
respective forum thread for this live

01:41:09.779 --> 01:41:10.081
stream.

01:41:11.180 --> 01:41:11.981
And for now,

01:41:12.721 --> 01:41:16.265
let's check in on our community forum.

01:41:16.505 --> 01:41:18.246
So there's always a lot of activity over

01:41:18.265 --> 01:41:18.506
there.

01:41:19.266 --> 01:41:20.927
And this week was no,

01:41:26.030 --> 01:41:26.871
You know what I'm trying to say?

01:41:26.890 --> 01:41:27.912
No exception.

01:41:28.311 --> 01:41:29.011
No exception.

01:41:29.032 --> 01:41:31.012
Yeah, this was a very, very busy week.

01:41:31.873 --> 01:41:33.954
So I guess this first one here is

01:41:34.055 --> 01:41:36.055
there was a Visa card vulnerability.

01:41:36.195 --> 01:41:37.436
So if you haven't seen this already,

01:41:37.457 --> 01:41:39.137
there was a video from Veritasium,

01:41:39.297 --> 01:41:42.479
which was just a quickly...

01:41:43.712 --> 01:41:45.354
recap what the video was about basically

01:41:45.373 --> 01:41:48.516
they did a collab with uh mkbhd where

01:41:48.537 --> 01:41:52.380
they basically had his uh phone and they

01:41:52.740 --> 01:41:55.483
were able to extract ten thousand dollars

01:41:55.502 --> 01:41:59.186
from his credit card um without any input

01:41:59.207 --> 01:42:00.868
from him like they just had his phone

01:42:00.948 --> 01:42:02.869
and they were able to extract ten thousand

01:42:02.890 --> 01:42:03.210
dollars

01:42:04.278 --> 01:42:06.899
Um, so that was kind of concerning, uh,

01:42:07.020 --> 01:42:09.002
definitely a very interesting video.

01:42:09.061 --> 01:42:10.644
I haven't had a time to watch the

01:42:10.684 --> 01:42:11.744
entire thing yet.

01:42:12.225 --> 01:42:12.284
Um,

01:42:12.305 --> 01:42:15.307
cause this week has been incredibly busy,

01:42:15.728 --> 01:42:16.609
but, um,

01:42:18.136 --> 01:42:19.497
Definitely worth checking that out.

01:42:20.278 --> 01:42:22.420
And I'll just highlight Jonah's comment

01:42:22.439 --> 01:42:24.201
here because he did watch the video.

01:42:25.381 --> 01:42:26.542
I just finished watching this video a

01:42:26.582 --> 01:42:27.002
minute ago.

01:42:27.082 --> 01:42:29.364
I knew this would be express transit

01:42:29.404 --> 01:42:29.885
related,

01:42:30.085 --> 01:42:32.686
but this interplay between that and Deezer

01:42:32.726 --> 01:42:33.266
is interesting.

01:42:33.386 --> 01:42:35.408
So basically the way that this kind of

01:42:35.609 --> 01:42:37.750
exploited it is it uses this thing called

01:42:37.829 --> 01:42:39.171
express transit mode,

01:42:39.430 --> 01:42:39.650
which

01:42:41.792 --> 01:42:41.953
I mean,

01:42:42.073 --> 01:42:45.577
I can't comment on if this is in

01:42:45.596 --> 01:42:47.939
the US quite a lot, but in Australia,

01:42:47.998 --> 01:42:49.380
like it's kind of very common.

01:42:49.460 --> 01:42:53.023
So basically when you tap onto public

01:42:53.082 --> 01:42:53.724
transport,

01:42:53.844 --> 01:42:59.569
you can basically use your phone to tap

01:42:59.649 --> 01:42:59.770
on,

01:43:00.329 --> 01:43:02.231
but you'll have to also authenticate

01:43:02.252 --> 01:43:02.431
yourself.

01:43:02.862 --> 01:43:04.643
Usually that's how it normally works.

01:43:05.384 --> 01:43:07.765
But if you enable express transit mode,

01:43:08.305 --> 01:43:10.368
it actually just allows you to tap your

01:43:10.408 --> 01:43:13.510
phone without authenticating at all.

01:43:13.810 --> 01:43:16.032
So that's why this becomes a bit of

01:43:16.051 --> 01:43:16.712
a problem, right?

01:43:16.752 --> 01:43:19.134
Because it would be fine if you had

01:43:19.173 --> 01:43:22.315
to authenticate and then it goes through.

01:43:22.497 --> 01:43:24.457
But basically this exploit was able to

01:43:24.578 --> 01:43:26.498
basically extract ten thousand dollars

01:43:26.619 --> 01:43:28.440
from MKBHD's phone and

01:43:29.945 --> 01:43:31.386
without him verifying anything.

01:43:33.427 --> 01:43:34.828
And apparently this was due to a

01:43:34.889 --> 01:43:36.130
vulnerability in Visa.

01:43:38.291 --> 01:43:40.011
They didn't have any,

01:43:40.032 --> 01:43:41.712
they didn't like cryptographically check

01:43:41.833 --> 01:43:43.173
the transaction or something.

01:43:43.675 --> 01:43:44.854
I'm not entirely sure of what the

01:43:44.935 --> 01:43:46.176
specifics are behind that,

01:43:46.877 --> 01:43:48.957
but there was some more people saying,

01:43:50.618 --> 01:43:52.039
there was another post here from Jonah

01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:54.140
asking whether express transit mode was

01:43:54.180 --> 01:43:56.823
enabled by default with a credit card on

01:43:56.842 --> 01:43:57.403
their device.

01:43:59.797 --> 01:44:00.980
I mean, I can comment on that,

01:44:01.001 --> 01:44:02.623
that it is a specific thing you need

01:44:02.663 --> 01:44:03.244
to enable.

01:44:03.386 --> 01:44:04.689
And sometimes it does.

01:44:05.210 --> 01:44:07.453
We don't have public transit in the US.

01:44:08.355 --> 01:44:08.898
I thought you did.

01:44:08.917 --> 01:44:09.538
I thought you did.

01:44:10.453 --> 01:44:12.435
Oh, is it private?

01:44:12.555 --> 01:44:15.097
We do, but it's pretty garbage.

01:44:15.137 --> 01:44:16.819
So for all intents and purposes, we don't.

01:44:18.002 --> 01:44:19.604
Years ago when we were still dating and

01:44:19.623 --> 01:44:20.645
we first started living together,

01:44:20.845 --> 01:44:24.649
my wife had a job that was maybe

01:44:24.668 --> 01:44:26.692
about a twenty minute drive by car.

01:44:27.091 --> 01:44:30.655
And long story short, I had had...

01:44:31.476 --> 01:44:32.796
The particular place we lived at,

01:44:32.896 --> 01:44:34.358
it was really easy for me to get

01:44:34.417 --> 01:44:35.318
downtown to go to work.

01:44:35.417 --> 01:44:35.858
And so I was like,

01:44:35.877 --> 01:44:36.877
you should try the bus one of these

01:44:36.898 --> 01:44:37.057
days.

01:44:37.078 --> 01:44:38.018
Just try it.

01:44:38.037 --> 01:44:38.859
You don't have to drive.

01:44:38.878 --> 01:44:39.599
You don't have to park.

01:44:39.859 --> 01:44:40.479
It's really handy.

01:44:40.798 --> 01:44:42.418
It took her three hours by bus.

01:44:42.639 --> 01:44:43.579
And she never did that again.

01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:46.340
So our public transit in the US is

01:44:46.520 --> 01:44:47.300
absolute garbage.

01:44:47.579 --> 01:44:48.301
But continue.

01:44:48.360 --> 01:44:50.581
Oh, I see.

01:44:51.121 --> 01:44:51.161
OK.

01:44:51.180 --> 01:44:54.801
I definitely have seen some public transit

01:44:54.822 --> 01:44:54.942
stuff.

01:44:55.021 --> 01:44:55.381
I mean,

01:44:55.561 --> 01:44:57.101
I think there's definitely some places

01:44:57.122 --> 01:44:58.262
where it's a little bit better,

01:44:58.323 --> 01:44:58.983
from what I've heard.

01:45:00.328 --> 01:45:01.791
Yeah, like New York is okay.

01:45:02.412 --> 01:45:04.115
I had good experiences in San Francisco,

01:45:04.235 --> 01:45:06.301
although I know everybody who's from those

01:45:06.320 --> 01:45:07.644
places are just like, really?

01:45:07.783 --> 01:45:09.407
But yeah,

01:45:10.269 --> 01:45:11.612
it's definitely not great in most places.

01:45:12.872 --> 01:45:13.694
Okay, right.

01:45:14.293 --> 01:45:14.894
I don't know.

01:45:14.954 --> 01:45:18.256
We've basically had this massive blitz

01:45:18.296 --> 01:45:21.559
from Apple in Sydney where they were

01:45:21.578 --> 01:45:22.500
basically saying, like,

01:45:23.961 --> 01:45:26.682
use Apple Wallet to use transit.

01:45:26.783 --> 01:45:29.444
Use Express Transit mode to speed up your

01:45:29.465 --> 01:45:31.426
commute, like all these ads from Apple,

01:45:32.686 --> 01:45:33.908
which is kind of funny because...

01:45:34.608 --> 01:45:36.672
Now we're learning that there's a

01:45:36.693 --> 01:45:39.498
vulnerability with visa cards and express

01:45:39.538 --> 01:45:42.766
transit mode, um, which, yeah, um,

01:45:44.426 --> 01:45:47.268
I personally enabled it once and I

01:45:47.347 --> 01:45:52.270
accidentally tapped onto some transport

01:45:53.351 --> 01:45:55.412
twice and then I disabled it because,

01:45:55.672 --> 01:45:55.872
yeah,

01:45:55.912 --> 01:45:56.734
you probably don't want it to

01:45:56.814 --> 01:45:59.175
automatically activate like that.

01:46:01.256 --> 01:46:02.417
But it is something you have to opt

01:46:02.476 --> 01:46:04.618
into and it is part of the flow

01:46:04.738 --> 01:46:06.680
when you set up a credit card in

01:46:06.760 --> 01:46:07.341
Apple Wallet.

01:46:07.980 --> 01:46:08.801
I do wonder if this...

01:46:09.720 --> 01:46:12.542
could also be exploited on Google.

01:46:13.083 --> 01:46:14.704
Um, it does say in this video,

01:46:14.805 --> 01:46:16.226
there's a picture of a Google pixel in

01:46:16.247 --> 01:46:19.149
the thumbnail and, um, it says safe,

01:46:19.208 --> 01:46:22.391
but I believe express transit mode is also

01:46:22.412 --> 01:46:24.894
available on Google wallet as well.

01:46:25.333 --> 01:46:25.413
Um,

01:46:25.434 --> 01:46:26.996
but maybe there's more checks going on

01:46:27.015 --> 01:46:28.377
there that secures that better.

01:46:29.438 --> 01:46:29.497
Um,

01:46:31.567 --> 01:46:32.027
But yeah,

01:46:32.146 --> 01:46:33.547
there were some comments responding to

01:46:33.587 --> 01:46:36.229
Jonah's thread there saying that their

01:46:36.409 --> 01:46:38.551
credit card wasn't enabled by default with

01:46:38.572 --> 01:46:39.091
this feature.

01:46:39.212 --> 01:46:42.234
So unless you accidentally enabled it or

01:46:43.715 --> 01:46:47.096
did something in the setup process,

01:46:47.136 --> 01:46:48.698
then it's probably not enabled.

01:46:50.942 --> 01:46:53.502
I think this was kind of unfortunate for

01:46:53.643 --> 01:46:55.684
MKBHD because he just got ten thousand

01:46:55.724 --> 01:46:58.206
dollars removed from his credit card.

01:46:58.706 --> 01:46:59.806
Obviously, they gave it back.

01:46:59.867 --> 01:47:00.846
But, you know,

01:47:00.947 --> 01:47:03.108
it's like imagine if he wasn't in a.

01:47:06.010 --> 01:47:07.250
Imagine if that was an attacker,

01:47:07.570 --> 01:47:10.072
that would be ten thousand dollars stolen

01:47:10.471 --> 01:47:11.693
and all you'd have to do is steal

01:47:11.733 --> 01:47:12.372
someone's phone.

01:47:12.972 --> 01:47:14.234
So, you know, I think.

01:47:16.856 --> 01:47:20.259
trying to reduce the things that thieves

01:47:20.298 --> 01:47:24.240
can do with a mobile device is good

01:47:24.280 --> 01:47:25.801
because it makes it less likely to be

01:47:25.862 --> 01:47:26.341
stolen.

01:47:26.823 --> 01:47:28.904
Um, I don't think stealing an, an,

01:47:29.163 --> 01:47:31.845
an iPhone or a Google pixel or any

01:47:31.864 --> 01:47:33.345
of these other devices is a very good

01:47:33.386 --> 01:47:33.645
idea.

01:47:33.666 --> 01:47:34.987
You're basically stealing a tracking

01:47:35.027 --> 01:47:35.908
device at that point.

01:47:38.048 --> 01:47:39.609
so yeah.

01:47:39.850 --> 01:47:40.010
Um,

01:47:41.840 --> 01:47:45.042
Definitely an interesting thread there

01:47:45.182 --> 01:47:46.144
with some discussion.

01:47:46.384 --> 01:47:47.524
Do you have any thoughts on this one,

01:47:47.545 --> 01:47:47.805
Nate?

01:47:49.567 --> 01:47:49.867
Yeah,

01:47:49.926 --> 01:47:52.470
I think it was really the video that

01:47:52.489 --> 01:47:53.751
everybody found interesting.

01:47:53.911 --> 01:47:56.052
But it seems that this is primarily

01:47:56.092 --> 01:47:57.293
limited to Visa cards.

01:47:58.494 --> 01:47:58.876
Like, again,

01:47:58.895 --> 01:48:00.056
that comment you were looking at from

01:48:00.117 --> 01:48:00.716
Jonah, he said...

01:48:02.581 --> 01:48:02.780
Again,

01:48:03.140 --> 01:48:04.301
I didn't watch the video either because

01:48:04.381 --> 01:48:05.762
it's been a busy week.

01:48:05.823 --> 01:48:06.844
But he said,

01:48:06.923 --> 01:48:08.125
I'd have to agree with Apple that this

01:48:08.145 --> 01:48:09.485
is primarily a Visa issue.

01:48:09.525 --> 01:48:10.707
But Visa's point that it is not worth

01:48:10.726 --> 01:48:12.188
fixing is probably accurate too.

01:48:12.748 --> 01:48:14.029
So I definitely want to try to watch

01:48:14.050 --> 01:48:14.911
the video this weekend.

01:48:15.011 --> 01:48:17.233
But yeah,

01:48:17.273 --> 01:48:18.594
I was kind of asking Jonah a little

01:48:18.613 --> 01:48:19.954
bit more about this before we started

01:48:20.515 --> 01:48:20.975
streaming.

01:48:21.155 --> 01:48:23.358
And there's not really any defenses at

01:48:23.377 --> 01:48:26.319
this time other than just to disable the

01:48:26.319 --> 01:48:27.461
–

01:48:27.354 --> 01:48:28.814
the automatic transit or whatever it's

01:48:28.835 --> 01:48:30.655
called, the express transit.

01:48:31.256 --> 01:48:32.896
And so it's just kind of a reminder,

01:48:32.936 --> 01:48:36.279
I guess that like privacy and well, yeah,

01:48:36.319 --> 01:48:38.701
privacy and security and convenience are

01:48:40.234 --> 01:48:42.155
almost always i i want to push back

01:48:42.195 --> 01:48:43.557
on always because i think there's actually

01:48:43.578 --> 01:48:45.019
been a few times that privacy and security

01:48:45.038 --> 01:48:46.480
have actually made my life more convenient

01:48:46.961 --> 01:48:49.103
but definitely ninety plus percent of the

01:48:49.143 --> 01:48:51.725
time they are on opposite ends of the

01:48:51.746 --> 01:48:53.268
spectrum with each other and that's kind

01:48:53.287 --> 01:48:54.708
of part of a threat model right is

01:48:54.868 --> 01:48:56.610
you have to ask like what am i

01:48:56.631 --> 01:48:57.692
trying to protect who am i trying to

01:48:57.712 --> 01:48:59.474
protect it from how much trouble am i

01:48:59.493 --> 01:49:00.876
willing to go through to protect this

01:49:00.916 --> 01:49:02.698
thing and i think

01:49:04.173 --> 01:49:07.278
I don't really use a lot of tap-to-pay

01:49:07.297 --> 01:49:08.059
stuff myself,

01:49:08.720 --> 01:49:10.061
mostly just because my phone doesn't

01:49:10.082 --> 01:49:10.462
support it.

01:49:11.143 --> 01:49:13.926
So I can't say for certain,

01:49:13.947 --> 01:49:15.207
but I would have to imagine that for

01:49:15.247 --> 01:49:17.371
most people, it's pretty like...

01:49:19.144 --> 01:49:21.925
It's probably not the end of the world

01:49:21.984 --> 01:49:23.704
to disable this express transit.

01:49:23.725 --> 01:49:24.905
Sure, it'll slow you down a little bit.

01:49:25.706 --> 01:49:27.426
And I mean, I also have to ask,

01:49:28.987 --> 01:49:30.148
again, I didn't watch this video,

01:49:30.427 --> 01:49:31.948
but genuinely asking,

01:49:32.368 --> 01:49:33.668
how easy would this be to pull off?

01:49:33.708 --> 01:49:35.349
Because just because it can be done,

01:49:35.448 --> 01:49:35.649
I mean,

01:49:36.048 --> 01:49:37.609
we can put people on the moon.

01:49:39.229 --> 01:49:39.949
Kind of hard.

01:49:40.329 --> 01:49:41.591
We haven't done it a whole lot.

01:49:42.110 --> 01:49:43.792
So, you know, it's the same thing here.

01:49:43.832 --> 01:49:44.011
Like,

01:49:44.152 --> 01:49:45.393
just because this can be done doesn't

01:49:45.412 --> 01:49:46.814
necessarily mean that it's something that

01:49:46.854 --> 01:49:48.595
you have to worry about every random

01:49:48.635 --> 01:49:50.055
person on the street doing this.

01:49:50.275 --> 01:49:50.596
So,

01:49:52.578 --> 01:49:54.618
if it's something that's very unlikely and

01:49:54.719 --> 01:49:55.859
you're in a really,

01:49:55.939 --> 01:49:57.381
really busy area where it's like, no,

01:49:57.421 --> 01:49:58.881
dude, that extra, like,

01:49:58.942 --> 01:50:00.363
two seconds it would take me to do

01:50:00.382 --> 01:50:02.744
this would actually kind of add up over

01:50:02.784 --> 01:50:03.685
time and get really annoying.

01:50:03.725 --> 01:50:04.185
Like, okay,

01:50:04.225 --> 01:50:05.265
maybe it's worth leaving it on.

01:50:05.827 --> 01:50:07.108
But if it...

01:50:08.143 --> 01:50:09.484
if it's not really going to impact your

01:50:09.524 --> 01:50:09.764
life,

01:50:09.804 --> 01:50:11.003
it's probably better to err on the side

01:50:11.024 --> 01:50:11.465
of caution.

01:50:13.805 --> 01:50:14.826
And somebody also said here that

01:50:14.865 --> 01:50:16.606
MasterCard has resolved this issue and

01:50:16.766 --> 01:50:19.389
Visa stands on that this is possibility of

01:50:19.429 --> 01:50:20.429
this to happen is so small.

01:50:20.788 --> 01:50:21.269
I agree with you.

01:50:21.309 --> 01:50:22.210
If it's one of those things where it's

01:50:22.229 --> 01:50:22.350
like,

01:50:22.390 --> 01:50:24.331
we know there's a solution and there's

01:50:24.371 --> 01:50:25.532
really no reason not to do it.

01:50:25.551 --> 01:50:26.771
I mean, that's what I'm basically saying,

01:50:26.811 --> 01:50:27.051
right?

01:50:27.091 --> 01:50:29.913
Like if you have no reason not to

01:50:29.953 --> 01:50:30.793
turn the setting off,

01:50:30.814 --> 01:50:31.774
then just turn it off.

01:50:32.414 --> 01:50:33.694
And I agree with you a hundred percent.

01:50:33.734 --> 01:50:35.275
Like if Visa could easily fix this,

01:50:35.296 --> 01:50:36.157
then they really should.

01:50:36.337 --> 01:50:36.697
But yeah,

01:50:38.734 --> 01:50:39.755
It doesn't sound like they're going to do

01:50:39.774 --> 01:50:40.536
that anytime soon.

01:50:40.615 --> 01:50:42.777
So unfortunately, it's on us.

01:50:42.978 --> 01:50:43.537
As usual,

01:50:45.158 --> 01:50:46.420
it's on us to care about our own

01:50:46.439 --> 01:50:47.921
privacy because these companies do not,

01:50:47.961 --> 01:50:49.301
or our own security in this case,

01:50:49.341 --> 01:50:50.542
because these companies do not.

01:50:50.582 --> 01:50:52.823
So I think that's kind of my takeaway

01:50:52.844 --> 01:50:53.203
from that one.

01:50:54.625 --> 01:50:54.805
Yeah,

01:50:54.824 --> 01:50:56.365
I just want to highlight Pineapple

01:50:56.426 --> 01:50:57.886
Express's comment here.

01:50:58.127 --> 01:50:58.807
Transit...

01:51:00.438 --> 01:51:01.177
That's a good comment.

01:51:01.358 --> 01:51:02.399
Yeah.

01:51:02.418 --> 01:51:03.359
Thanks for commenting.

01:51:04.439 --> 01:51:05.020
Transit.

01:51:05.539 --> 01:51:07.801
Thanks for adding to the discussion.

01:51:10.181 --> 01:51:10.681
But I think, yeah.

01:51:10.702 --> 01:51:12.363
Wasn't pineapple express a type of weed in

01:51:12.382 --> 01:51:14.344
a movie?

01:51:14.363 --> 01:51:14.604
Sorry.

01:51:16.545 --> 01:51:17.064
Possibly.

01:51:17.805 --> 01:51:18.365
It's an old movie.

01:51:19.921 --> 01:51:20.942
Yeah, it's definitely,

01:51:21.042 --> 01:51:22.703
I feel like it's definitely some

01:51:22.762 --> 01:51:24.503
references in the chat usually.

01:51:25.083 --> 01:51:28.567
But yeah, I think, yeah, I mean,

01:51:28.907 --> 01:51:29.567
I think it's like,

01:51:29.646 --> 01:51:33.609
so the process between like,

01:51:34.130 --> 01:51:35.110
I feel like it's the...

01:51:36.600 --> 01:51:38.442
the process between authenticating and

01:51:38.502 --> 01:51:40.942
tapping is like so little that it's like,

01:51:41.141 --> 01:51:42.903
really, like, are we really doing,

01:51:42.983 --> 01:51:44.363
is this really necessary?

01:51:44.762 --> 01:51:44.962
Um,

01:51:45.082 --> 01:51:47.423
so I feel like it's not really that

01:51:47.444 --> 01:51:48.344
much of a concern.

01:51:48.404 --> 01:51:49.385
Just disable it.

01:51:49.425 --> 01:51:50.625
Just don't use this feature.

01:51:50.664 --> 01:51:53.905
Like it's, I don't know.

01:51:53.966 --> 01:51:55.286
You kind of know when you're going to

01:51:55.305 --> 01:51:56.587
get off transit, you know,

01:51:56.606 --> 01:51:58.726
when you're going to get off a train,

01:51:58.747 --> 01:51:58.987
you know,

01:51:59.006 --> 01:52:00.207
when you're going to get off a bus,

01:52:01.667 --> 01:52:02.568
a ferry, whatever.

01:52:02.948 --> 01:52:04.009
Um, so, you know, just

01:52:05.386 --> 01:52:06.689
time it with how you're doing it,

01:52:06.708 --> 01:52:08.470
just authenticate and then tap.

01:52:09.072 --> 01:52:10.474
I think that's the easiest way to get

01:52:10.514 --> 01:52:10.755
out of

01:52:12.219 --> 01:52:14.381
falling into this issue.

01:52:14.581 --> 01:52:16.922
But I guess there was also another thread

01:52:16.962 --> 01:52:20.645
here from someone talking about airplane

01:52:20.685 --> 01:52:22.766
mode on Graphene OS.

01:52:23.648 --> 01:52:24.728
I'm just going to read their comment.

01:52:24.747 --> 01:52:26.630
I'm not going to mention their name for

01:52:26.689 --> 01:52:27.489
privacy reasons.

01:52:27.970 --> 01:52:29.652
I think people should be aware that

01:52:29.752 --> 01:52:31.472
airplane mode on Graphene OS doesn't

01:52:31.512 --> 01:52:33.574
completely turn off the SIM as you can

01:52:33.614 --> 01:52:35.936
still receive and make calls over Wi-Fi,

01:52:36.277 --> 01:52:38.899
a technology known as VO Wi-Fi.

01:52:41.436 --> 01:52:42.898
I am not certain about it,

01:52:42.958 --> 01:52:44.840
but I think this means your ISP can

01:52:44.859 --> 01:52:45.720
know your location,

01:52:45.820 --> 01:52:47.103
at least when you stay home.

01:52:47.483 --> 01:52:50.945
VO Wi-Fi might only work on router from

01:52:50.985 --> 01:52:52.728
the same ISP as your mobile.

01:52:52.768 --> 01:52:56.551
You can disable it in the SIM settings.

01:52:56.591 --> 01:52:57.311
This is interesting.

01:52:57.893 --> 01:52:58.934
Do you have any thoughts on this?

01:52:59.054 --> 01:53:00.175
I don't even know if this is a

01:53:00.215 --> 01:53:02.117
thing in Australia.

01:53:02.157 --> 01:53:04.579
So you guys don't have airplane mode in

01:53:04.600 --> 01:53:04.979
Australia?

01:53:06.623 --> 01:53:08.664
I mean, the VR, VR, wifi.

01:53:08.824 --> 01:53:09.885
Oh, voiceover wifi.

01:53:09.925 --> 01:53:10.085
Yeah.

01:53:10.164 --> 01:53:11.185
I don't know if we have that here.

01:53:11.364 --> 01:53:12.524
Like I know there is, um,

01:53:13.546 --> 01:53:14.265
in a lot of phones,

01:53:14.286 --> 01:53:16.225
there's a setting to enable wifi calling,

01:53:16.265 --> 01:53:18.287
uh, which maybe that's the same thing,

01:53:18.426 --> 01:53:19.947
but, uh,

01:53:19.987 --> 01:53:22.047
maybe voiceover wifi is like the protocol

01:53:22.068 --> 01:53:22.768
that enables that.

01:53:22.787 --> 01:53:24.047
And that's just what the settings called

01:53:24.127 --> 01:53:25.268
is enable wifi calling.

01:53:25.307 --> 01:53:26.189
But yeah.

01:53:26.368 --> 01:53:26.969
Um, no, I think I,

01:53:27.069 --> 01:53:28.849
I wanted to highlight this because, uh,

01:53:28.908 --> 01:53:32.609
we do recommend on privacy guides to use

01:53:32.710 --> 01:53:33.951
airplane mode whenever possible.

01:53:34.690 --> 01:53:35.270
And, um,

01:53:36.180 --> 01:53:37.682
I think I just really wanted to point

01:53:37.762 --> 01:53:41.466
out that this is one of those things

01:53:41.485 --> 01:53:42.728
where it's like it's kind of a very

01:53:42.828 --> 01:53:45.550
niche, like a more advanced thing,

01:53:45.590 --> 01:53:46.792
but it's still something that's good.

01:53:46.832 --> 01:53:47.872
Like it's always good to have things on

01:53:47.893 --> 01:53:48.372
your radar, right?

01:53:48.393 --> 01:53:50.074
It's always good to have that information

01:53:50.114 --> 01:53:51.216
and make decisions accordingly.

01:53:51.716 --> 01:53:56.220
So here's actually one of the comments

01:53:56.261 --> 01:53:57.582
that we wanted to highlight to kind of

01:53:57.601 --> 01:53:58.042
explain this.

01:54:00.503 --> 01:54:01.725
Disabling your SIM does not...

01:54:02.706 --> 01:54:04.688
Where does it go?

01:54:04.787 --> 01:54:06.248
Airplane mode is intended to disable

01:54:06.309 --> 01:54:07.911
cellular radios, not your SIM,

01:54:08.030 --> 01:54:09.891
and is well documented on how it works

01:54:09.931 --> 01:54:11.052
on every mobile OS.

01:54:11.974 --> 01:54:13.675
I think they said that Graphene documented

01:54:13.695 --> 01:54:13.815
that.

01:54:14.055 --> 01:54:15.516
Graphene has really good documentation.

01:54:16.257 --> 01:54:16.917
They said, likewise,

01:54:16.938 --> 01:54:18.399
disabling your SIM does not disable your

01:54:18.439 --> 01:54:19.199
cellular radios,

01:54:19.260 --> 01:54:20.501
and your device will still ping cell

01:54:20.541 --> 01:54:21.983
towers unless you enable airplane mode.

01:54:22.703 --> 01:54:23.923
It's in the name really airplane mode

01:54:23.963 --> 01:54:25.404
exists solely to comply with regulations

01:54:25.465 --> 01:54:26.945
requiring cellular radios to be completely

01:54:26.985 --> 01:54:27.506
turned off.

01:54:27.786 --> 01:54:29.266
The privacy factors are a side effect.

01:54:29.447 --> 01:54:32.149
So basically I think what,

01:54:32.269 --> 01:54:36.652
what they're saying is that if you enable

01:54:36.731 --> 01:54:37.351
airplane mode,

01:54:37.453 --> 01:54:39.253
you are turning off the radios,

01:54:40.194 --> 01:54:42.395
but not necessarily the SIM card itself.

01:54:42.435 --> 01:54:43.877
So if you do have other things turned

01:54:43.976 --> 01:54:47.418
on like voiceover wifi, then that is a,

01:54:49.320 --> 01:54:51.141
potentially, if you're not using a VPN,

01:54:51.181 --> 01:54:51.662
for example,

01:54:51.742 --> 01:54:53.262
I'm assuming a VPN would beat that because

01:54:53.283 --> 01:54:54.382
it's voice over Wi-Fi.

01:54:55.583 --> 01:54:55.743
I mean,

01:54:55.764 --> 01:54:56.845
it's a really good thread because a lot

01:54:56.864 --> 01:54:57.625
of people talked about,

01:54:58.345 --> 01:54:59.605
apparently on some phones,

01:54:59.645 --> 01:55:01.287
the voice over Wi-Fi still goes outside

01:55:01.306 --> 01:55:01.926
the VPN,

01:55:01.966 --> 01:55:04.568
but Graphene tries to send everything

01:55:04.587 --> 01:55:06.029
through the VPN as much as possible.

01:55:06.588 --> 01:55:08.869
So it's one of those things where, again,

01:55:08.909 --> 01:55:09.831
I think this is probably...

01:55:11.070 --> 01:55:12.412
more extreme privacy thing.

01:55:13.073 --> 01:55:15.315
I think it's probably not going to make

01:55:15.336 --> 01:55:16.095
or break most people,

01:55:16.497 --> 01:55:18.899
but it's still definitely something that

01:55:18.939 --> 01:55:20.280
you should know of and you should be

01:55:20.301 --> 01:55:20.780
aware of.

01:55:21.161 --> 01:55:22.722
And if that is part of your threat

01:55:22.743 --> 01:55:24.083
model, you should factor that in.

01:55:24.505 --> 01:55:27.427
It's good information to have because I

01:55:27.467 --> 01:55:29.430
was also kind of under the impression that

01:55:31.171 --> 01:55:31.471
I don't know.

01:55:31.572 --> 01:55:32.372
I think I was kind of under the

01:55:32.391 --> 01:55:34.613
impression that turning on airplane mode

01:55:34.632 --> 01:55:36.854
would kind of turn off the sim,

01:55:36.953 --> 01:55:37.514
or at least,

01:55:38.173 --> 01:55:38.934
I don't know what I was under the

01:55:38.953 --> 01:55:39.833
impression, to be honest.

01:55:39.873 --> 01:55:42.515
But it's definitely something interesting

01:55:42.555 --> 01:55:43.715
to keep in mind, for sure.

01:55:44.475 --> 01:55:45.695
And yeah, I see you highlighted,

01:55:45.735 --> 01:55:48.516
Jonah said that voice over Wi-Fi and

01:55:48.556 --> 01:55:50.777
enable Wi-Fi calling are the same thing.

01:55:50.796 --> 01:55:51.457
So good to know.

01:55:51.518 --> 01:55:52.118
OK.

01:55:52.238 --> 01:55:52.377
Yeah,

01:55:52.398 --> 01:55:54.377
I've never heard it called VO Wi-Fi

01:55:54.398 --> 01:55:54.698
before.

01:55:54.738 --> 01:55:56.439
I thought it might be a different thing.

01:55:56.479 --> 01:55:58.180
But yeah, Wi-Fi calling, we do have that.

01:55:59.300 --> 01:55:59.840
Yeah, same here.

01:56:00.136 --> 01:56:03.199
I think one thing as well is airplane

01:56:03.239 --> 01:56:03.579
mode.

01:56:05.902 --> 01:56:07.023
As far as I'm aware,

01:56:07.082 --> 01:56:10.386
like if you make a call to emergency

01:56:10.426 --> 01:56:10.966
services,

01:56:11.027 --> 01:56:15.149
it still connects to the tower as well.

01:56:15.189 --> 01:56:17.032
So yeah,

01:56:17.311 --> 01:56:19.154
I think I'm not entirely sure if it's,

01:56:20.494 --> 01:56:21.716
I'm pretty sure the whole point of

01:56:21.815 --> 01:56:24.377
airplane mode was to stop signals coming

01:56:24.417 --> 01:56:26.100
out of the device when you're in an

01:56:26.180 --> 01:56:26.640
airplane.

01:56:26.659 --> 01:56:27.020
So yeah,

01:56:27.947 --> 01:56:29.528
I guess that's fine,

01:56:30.007 --> 01:56:32.149
except if you launch an emergency call,

01:56:32.229 --> 01:56:32.430
I guess.

01:56:32.449 --> 01:56:35.311
I guess there's maybe laws that have to,

01:56:36.192 --> 01:56:37.932
that say it has to be bypassed for

01:56:37.972 --> 01:56:39.514
emergency situations.

01:56:39.814 --> 01:56:43.936
I'm not sure.

01:56:43.957 --> 01:56:45.238
Yeah, and to be honest, I didn't,

01:56:46.537 --> 01:56:48.659
I don't know how it works in terms

01:56:48.699 --> 01:56:49.359
of bypass.

01:56:49.420 --> 01:56:53.523
Like, I don't know if, I'm assuming not,

01:56:53.563 --> 01:56:55.463
just based on the true crime stories I've

01:56:55.503 --> 01:56:55.703
heard.

01:56:55.823 --> 01:56:57.064
I don't know if cops can like,

01:56:58.630 --> 01:57:00.451
still continue to track you like okay

01:57:00.490 --> 01:57:02.572
obviously what i'm saying is if i have

01:57:02.612 --> 01:57:04.033
airplane mode on and i call nine one

01:57:04.092 --> 01:57:06.335
one yes it's gonna go through um what

01:57:06.395 --> 01:57:09.015
i don't know is can they reverse that

01:57:09.055 --> 01:57:11.136
could the cops just surreptitiously decide

01:57:11.197 --> 01:57:13.679
to figure out where i am when i

01:57:13.698 --> 01:57:15.359
have airplane mode on my money says no

01:57:15.520 --> 01:57:16.881
but i could be wrong on that one

01:57:17.640 --> 01:57:20.222
um yeah i don't know it's interesting

01:57:20.262 --> 01:57:25.466
stuff i think one thing nah that's not

01:57:25.525 --> 01:57:26.605
not really relevant i was going to talk

01:57:26.626 --> 01:57:27.667
about uh the the different

01:57:29.231 --> 01:57:31.934
triangulation with a cell versus wifi,

01:57:31.974 --> 01:57:33.414
but I don't think that's really relevant

01:57:33.435 --> 01:57:33.956
to this.

01:57:33.996 --> 01:57:36.056
So it's, it's interesting stuff though.

01:57:36.077 --> 01:57:36.377
Like I said,

01:57:36.398 --> 01:57:37.297
I think it's one of those things that

01:57:37.798 --> 01:57:38.559
if you guys have some time,

01:57:38.578 --> 01:57:40.280
definitely go check out that thread and

01:57:40.501 --> 01:57:42.742
just kind of give it a quick browse.

01:57:42.783 --> 01:57:43.603
Cause it's, it's,

01:57:43.703 --> 01:57:44.783
it's not a very long thread.

01:57:44.804 --> 01:57:45.505
I think there were only what,

01:57:45.545 --> 01:57:47.405
like not even ten replies or something.

01:57:47.565 --> 01:57:49.226
And so it's just one of those,

01:57:49.268 --> 01:57:50.988
like the more, you know, kind of things.

01:57:56.024 --> 01:57:56.865
On that note,

01:57:57.346 --> 01:57:59.569
we're going to take viewer questions and

01:57:59.609 --> 01:58:01.591
we're going to start with the questions on

01:58:01.631 --> 01:58:03.354
our forum from our paying members.

01:58:03.774 --> 01:58:05.074
You can become a member by going to

01:58:05.095 --> 01:58:07.358
privacyguides.org and clicking the red

01:58:07.518 --> 01:58:09.260
heart icon in the top right corner of

01:58:09.300 --> 01:58:09.701
the page.

01:58:10.121 --> 01:58:11.242
Or I keep forgetting,

01:58:11.282 --> 01:58:13.725
we also have privacyguides.org slash

01:58:13.765 --> 01:58:15.726
donate, which will take you right there.

01:58:16.813 --> 01:58:17.353
Um,

01:58:17.413 --> 01:58:20.114
so we only had one question this week

01:58:20.775 --> 01:58:22.356
and somebody said that privacy guides

01:58:22.377 --> 01:58:23.957
currently does not recommend to enable the

01:58:24.018 --> 01:58:25.918
tell websites not to sell or share my

01:58:25.958 --> 01:58:27.359
data feature in Firefox.

01:58:27.720 --> 01:58:28.640
Should we enable this?

01:58:28.761 --> 01:58:30.141
If so, is it still worth enabling?

01:58:30.242 --> 01:58:31.603
Even if you don't reside in a jurisdiction

01:58:31.622 --> 01:58:33.224
that makes GPC opt out functional,

01:58:33.564 --> 01:58:34.685
but more of a statement of preference.

01:58:34.744 --> 01:58:37.466
So, um,

01:58:37.487 --> 01:58:38.627
I have a lot of beef with Mozilla,

01:58:39.247 --> 01:58:40.529
but one thing I will give them,

01:58:41.029 --> 01:58:42.210
it's both a pro and a con is

01:58:42.250 --> 01:58:42.529
yes.

01:58:42.630 --> 01:58:44.652
If you click the button that says tell

01:58:44.671 --> 01:58:46.153
websites not to sell or share my data,

01:58:47.524 --> 01:58:49.905
I, on Firefox,

01:58:50.025 --> 01:58:51.547
that does not enable do not track.

01:58:51.608 --> 01:58:52.748
That enables GPC.

01:58:53.909 --> 01:58:54.789
And on the one hand,

01:58:54.890 --> 01:58:55.871
I wish they would make that a little

01:58:55.890 --> 01:58:56.591
bit more obvious.

01:58:56.971 --> 01:58:58.412
I did have to dig into the documentation

01:58:58.432 --> 01:58:58.873
to learn that.

01:58:59.274 --> 01:58:59.994
But on the other hand,

01:59:00.774 --> 01:59:01.996
the average person probably doesn't know

01:59:02.015 --> 01:59:02.697
the difference anyways.

01:59:02.777 --> 01:59:03.377
So what does it matter?

01:59:05.619 --> 01:59:06.300
Crap, I'm out of water.

01:59:07.520 --> 01:59:10.583
So as I understand it,

01:59:10.644 --> 01:59:11.645
and someone please correct me if I'm

01:59:11.685 --> 01:59:11.864
wrong,

01:59:13.777 --> 01:59:15.537
I don't think there's a drawback to

01:59:15.596 --> 01:59:16.557
enabling GPC.

01:59:17.217 --> 01:59:17.997
In the past,

01:59:18.158 --> 01:59:22.418
Do Not Track had this thing where when

01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:23.399
you enable Do Not Track,

01:59:23.439 --> 01:59:24.979
it basically did something in the headers

01:59:25.539 --> 01:59:27.739
that ironically made you stand out more.

01:59:28.220 --> 01:59:30.060
It created a header that wasn't there,

01:59:30.280 --> 01:59:31.600
and that was one more data point they

01:59:31.621 --> 01:59:32.360
could use to track you.

01:59:32.780 --> 01:59:34.020
And since there was no legal enforcement

01:59:34.060 --> 01:59:35.341
behind it,

01:59:36.981 --> 01:59:38.261
a lot of websites straight up say in

01:59:38.282 --> 01:59:39.341
their privacy policy, they're like,

01:59:39.381 --> 01:59:41.382
we do not respect Do Not Track requests.

01:59:42.648 --> 01:59:43.171
which is crappy,

01:59:43.192 --> 01:59:43.956
but at least they say it.

01:59:44.399 --> 01:59:44.619
So...

01:59:46.792 --> 01:59:47.112
I don't know.

01:59:48.972 --> 01:59:51.354
What I was told is that the way

01:59:51.373 --> 01:59:53.694
that GPC works is somehow more privacy

01:59:53.734 --> 01:59:54.114
respecting.

01:59:54.135 --> 01:59:54.555
And I don't,

01:59:55.255 --> 01:59:56.595
the technical stuff goes over my head.

01:59:56.676 --> 01:59:57.435
I don't understand how,

01:59:57.855 --> 01:59:59.117
but it's one of those things where they're

01:59:59.157 --> 02:00:00.417
not supposed to be able to track you.

02:00:00.436 --> 02:00:01.797
Like that was a lesson learned from Do

02:00:01.858 --> 02:00:03.498
Not Track is now we've implemented this in

02:00:03.538 --> 02:00:05.259
a way where it cannot be used as

02:00:05.298 --> 02:00:06.640
another fingerprint data point.

02:00:07.399 --> 02:00:09.240
So even if you're not in an area

02:00:09.360 --> 02:00:10.980
where GPC is required,

02:00:11.902 --> 02:00:12.622
as far as I know,

02:00:12.742 --> 02:00:14.403
it still doesn't hurt to turn it on

02:00:15.307 --> 02:00:17.309
And, you know, if they don't,

02:00:17.948 --> 02:00:18.890
it's one of those things where, you know,

02:00:18.949 --> 02:00:19.869
a lot of people say like,

02:00:21.490 --> 02:00:22.091
there's no point.

02:00:23.631 --> 02:00:24.292
Sorry, let me back up.

02:00:24.631 --> 02:00:25.953
So I was told by a lawyer one

02:00:25.993 --> 02:00:28.154
time that if you do not interact with

02:00:28.194 --> 02:00:28.833
a cookie banner,

02:00:29.054 --> 02:00:31.734
companies are supposed to treat that as

02:00:31.994 --> 02:00:35.476
the same as saying, don't track me.

02:00:35.877 --> 02:00:37.077
And they're not supposed to track you.

02:00:37.277 --> 02:00:38.177
They're not supposed to put the cookie

02:00:38.198 --> 02:00:38.337
there.

02:00:40.565 --> 02:00:42.989
a lot of people will argue that like

02:00:43.050 --> 02:00:44.270
the cookie banner doesn't really matter.

02:00:44.291 --> 02:00:45.051
And they're just going to track you

02:00:45.072 --> 02:00:45.332
anyways.

02:00:45.693 --> 02:00:46.574
It's one of those things where like,

02:00:46.614 --> 02:00:47.095
in my opinion,

02:00:47.154 --> 02:00:48.256
it doesn't hurt to say no,

02:00:48.858 --> 02:00:52.243
because it just, I don't know.

02:00:52.262 --> 02:00:53.344
I'm having a hard time with words tonight.

02:00:53.725 --> 02:00:54.945
It just doesn't hurt is what I'm getting

02:00:54.985 --> 02:00:55.086
at.

02:00:55.127 --> 02:00:55.887
As far as I know, if,

02:00:56.007 --> 02:00:56.569
if it doesn't,

02:00:57.813 --> 02:00:58.993
If the company's not going to respect it,

02:00:59.012 --> 02:00:59.773
they're not going to respect it

02:00:59.813 --> 02:01:00.274
regardless.

02:01:00.974 --> 02:01:02.173
But if they do respect it,

02:01:02.293 --> 02:01:03.194
it's not going to make you any more

02:01:03.234 --> 02:01:03.793
fingerprintable.

02:01:03.913 --> 02:01:04.654
I know I remember,

02:01:05.154 --> 02:01:06.175
I wish I could remember what it was,

02:01:06.194 --> 02:01:07.654
but there was a period where I was

02:01:07.694 --> 02:01:10.095
like going to websites and I would keep

02:01:10.115 --> 02:01:12.095
seeing a little pop-up just for a second,

02:01:13.016 --> 02:01:14.117
a very non-intrusive pop-up.

02:01:14.216 --> 02:01:15.037
Imagine that, crazy.

02:01:15.377 --> 02:01:16.317
That just said like, hey,

02:01:16.377 --> 02:01:17.837
we saw your browser has GPC.

02:01:18.037 --> 02:01:19.457
We respect that and we're not tracking

02:01:19.497 --> 02:01:19.597
you.

02:01:19.618 --> 02:01:21.038
And I was like, holy crap, that's awesome.

02:01:21.479 --> 02:01:22.479
I haven't seen it a lot lately,

02:01:22.538 --> 02:01:23.418
but yeah.

02:01:23.458 --> 02:01:24.238
So as far as I know,

02:01:24.279 --> 02:01:24.840
in my opinion,

02:01:25.319 --> 02:01:26.539
I think it's totally worth enabling.

02:01:27.100 --> 02:01:27.239
Um,

02:01:27.279 --> 02:01:28.362
Jonah said we'll have to make a video

02:01:28.402 --> 02:01:30.023
or something explaining it more.

02:01:30.042 --> 02:01:32.225
So, uh, he didn't say I was wrong,

02:01:32.305 --> 02:01:33.106
so that's good news.

02:01:33.167 --> 02:01:33.426
I think,

02:01:33.667 --> 02:01:37.671
I think I was right about that.

02:01:37.712 --> 02:01:38.011
Yeah.

02:01:38.212 --> 02:01:40.234
I mean, I agree with all points.

02:01:40.373 --> 02:01:40.895
Well said.

02:01:41.375 --> 02:01:41.595
Um,

02:01:41.655 --> 02:01:43.157
I didn't really have anything to add to

02:01:43.176 --> 02:01:43.478
that.

02:01:43.997 --> 02:01:46.480
Um, yeah.

02:01:48.817 --> 02:01:49.596
Cool.

02:01:49.617 --> 02:01:51.078
That was our only question in the forum.

02:01:51.137 --> 02:01:52.998
The only other one person said that Chrome

02:01:53.038 --> 02:01:56.341
is planning to add the GPC toggle this

02:01:56.381 --> 02:01:56.720
year.

02:01:58.561 --> 02:01:59.743
We still don't recommend Chrome.

02:02:00.662 --> 02:02:02.123
Someone else said that it is enabled by

02:02:02.163 --> 02:02:03.904
default in LibreWolf, which makes sense.

02:02:04.706 --> 02:02:07.926
And we do have one question in the

02:02:07.966 --> 02:02:09.268
comments so far.

02:02:09.667 --> 02:02:13.630
Swisskill is asking about any router

02:02:13.649 --> 02:02:15.470
recommendations in the EU after the US

02:02:15.511 --> 02:02:17.032
banned foreign manufactured devices.

02:02:20.856 --> 02:02:22.436
I don't have any reason to believe that

02:02:22.457 --> 02:02:23.377
there's any backdoors.

02:02:23.537 --> 02:02:26.217
I don't... Okay,

02:02:26.238 --> 02:02:27.457
I'm going to be a little political here.

02:02:28.217 --> 02:02:29.698
A lot of what the administration is doing

02:02:29.738 --> 02:02:30.519
does not make sense,

02:02:30.618 --> 02:02:31.819
even to a lot of us Americans.

02:02:32.699 --> 02:02:34.380
Some of it does, I will say.

02:02:34.399 --> 02:02:35.479
That doesn't mean I agree with it,

02:02:35.520 --> 02:02:36.661
but some of it does have a logic.

02:02:37.381 --> 02:02:39.320
Some of it very much looks like somebody

02:02:39.360 --> 02:02:40.742
just woke up and decided something one

02:02:40.761 --> 02:02:40.942
day.

02:02:41.601 --> 02:02:44.162
And this is one of them where there's

02:02:44.302 --> 02:02:44.462
no...

02:02:46.385 --> 02:02:47.305
as far as we know,

02:02:47.506 --> 02:02:49.685
at least there's absolutely no evidence to

02:02:49.725 --> 02:02:51.487
suggest that any of these routers,

02:02:51.947 --> 02:02:52.787
cause they're all like,

02:02:53.047 --> 02:02:54.307
if you go back and watch, we,

02:02:54.368 --> 02:02:56.128
we made this our headline story when this

02:02:56.149 --> 02:02:57.449
happened on the podcast.

02:02:58.289 --> 02:02:59.310
Um, so go out,

02:02:59.350 --> 02:03:00.411
go back and check that one out.

02:03:00.530 --> 02:03:01.492
I don't know what episode that is,

02:03:06.015 --> 02:03:07.817
we don't know of any existing backdoors.

02:03:08.056 --> 02:03:09.777
All routers are currently foreign

02:03:09.817 --> 02:03:11.056
manufactured anyways.

02:03:11.578 --> 02:03:12.677
So this whole idea of like the U

02:03:12.818 --> 02:03:14.358
S is banning foreign manufactured routers.

02:03:14.377 --> 02:03:15.618
The U S is banning all routers,

02:03:15.658 --> 02:03:17.158
basically a quick update,

02:03:17.198 --> 02:03:18.699
actually net year finally got their first

02:03:18.739 --> 02:03:19.180
exemption.

02:03:19.619 --> 02:03:21.020
That was almost one of the stories we

02:03:21.060 --> 02:03:22.900
covered, but a pretty crowded week.

02:03:22.921 --> 02:03:24.761
So we decided that one was the weakest

02:03:24.841 --> 02:03:27.002
one, but I don't know, personally,

02:03:27.122 --> 02:03:27.822
I wouldn't worry about it.

02:03:28.162 --> 02:03:29.722
What I would focus on instead is looking

02:03:29.762 --> 02:03:30.842
for a router that's,

02:03:31.823 --> 02:03:32.163
um,

02:03:32.184 --> 02:03:33.945
compatible with open source firmwares like

02:03:34.025 --> 02:03:34.966
open WRT.

02:03:35.587 --> 02:03:36.127
Um,

02:03:36.266 --> 02:03:37.868
I've had good experiences so far on fresh

02:03:37.889 --> 02:03:39.329
tomato is still working great for me.

02:03:39.810 --> 02:03:41.872
DDW RT used to work really great up

02:03:41.931 --> 02:03:43.372
until about a month or two ago.

02:03:43.853 --> 02:03:45.054
Um, so yeah, I would,

02:03:45.154 --> 02:03:47.015
I would focus more on like looking for

02:03:47.194 --> 02:03:49.396
an open WRT router or something similar

02:03:49.856 --> 02:03:50.257
personally.

02:03:51.097 --> 02:03:51.979
That'd be my recommendation.

02:03:54.530 --> 02:03:55.270
Yeah,

02:03:56.712 --> 02:03:58.073
I feel like the big one that I

02:03:58.153 --> 02:03:59.853
see a lot of people using is the

02:03:59.972 --> 02:04:02.054
GLInet routers,

02:04:02.094 --> 02:04:04.555
which I believe they all come with.

02:04:04.715 --> 02:04:05.416
Well, not all of them,

02:04:05.456 --> 02:04:09.917
but the majority of their more reasonably

02:04:09.997 --> 02:04:14.560
priced ones support OpenWRT,

02:04:14.619 --> 02:04:16.801
and they also have their own spin of

02:04:16.900 --> 02:04:19.362
OpenWRT, which is what it comes with,

02:04:19.381 --> 02:04:21.363
which is a bit more user-friendly because

02:04:22.403 --> 02:04:23.623
OpenWRT is...

02:04:27.402 --> 02:04:28.681
It allows you to do a lot,

02:04:28.942 --> 02:04:35.244
but its interface is not the greatest,

02:04:35.364 --> 02:04:37.246
let's just say.

02:04:37.685 --> 02:04:41.606
I'm not like any networking expert,

02:04:41.827 --> 02:04:46.588
but I have had issues with configuring

02:04:46.649 --> 02:04:49.289
stuff properly because I'm not really...

02:04:50.731 --> 02:04:52.493
super network savvy where like, you know,

02:04:52.974 --> 02:04:55.396
it's so easy on like GLI net or

02:04:55.417 --> 02:04:59.780
like DDWRT or like fresh tomato to

02:04:59.820 --> 02:05:01.122
basically, um,

02:05:03.113 --> 02:05:05.033
you know, set up separate networks,

02:05:05.094 --> 02:05:06.534
set up VPN connections,

02:05:06.614 --> 02:05:08.034
all that stuff is a lot easier on

02:05:08.055 --> 02:05:08.414
those.

02:05:09.274 --> 02:05:09.454
Um,

02:05:09.515 --> 02:05:11.256
so GLI net is one that I see

02:05:11.315 --> 02:05:12.336
recommended a lot.

02:05:12.716 --> 02:05:14.317
Um, I don't know if this,

02:05:14.497 --> 02:05:16.577
this probably a pretty regional thing,

02:05:16.617 --> 02:05:17.817
but we have Dray tech.

02:05:17.837 --> 02:05:20.018
Uh, I think they're a Taiwanese company,

02:05:20.078 --> 02:05:21.858
but a lot of their routers also support

02:05:21.978 --> 02:05:22.878
open WRT.

02:05:23.998 --> 02:05:25.878
Um, yeah,

02:05:25.899 --> 02:05:28.760
I can't really think of too many, uh,

02:05:28.920 --> 02:05:31.801
other companies that I would, I mean,

02:05:31.921 --> 02:05:32.501
I guess there's,

02:05:34.625 --> 02:05:35.265
Yeah, I mean,

02:05:35.345 --> 02:05:37.405
I can't really think of any European

02:05:37.466 --> 02:05:39.145
companies that make routers, really.

02:05:39.185 --> 02:05:42.407
Can you?

02:05:42.466 --> 02:05:43.266
I think there's one.

02:05:43.367 --> 02:05:43.827
Oh, my God.

02:05:44.006 --> 02:05:46.207
Jonah and I talked about it because I

02:05:46.226 --> 02:05:47.948
remember the subtitles got it right,

02:05:47.967 --> 02:05:48.287
and I was like,

02:05:48.307 --> 02:05:49.528
I've never heard of this company.

02:05:49.648 --> 02:05:50.608
And so I had to ask him if

02:05:50.688 --> 02:05:53.448
that's Microtech or something.

02:05:53.689 --> 02:05:56.149
I think they're like a Finnish company.

02:05:56.250 --> 02:05:57.630
Everybody's going to be so offended that I

02:05:57.729 --> 02:05:59.229
can't keep my European country straight.

02:06:01.110 --> 02:06:03.030
Microtech is Taiwanese company.

02:06:03.502 --> 02:06:04.484
No, no, no.

02:06:05.484 --> 02:06:08.269
There's another one.

02:06:08.288 --> 02:06:09.170
There is.

02:06:09.251 --> 02:06:09.871
God, what a...

02:06:12.641 --> 02:06:14.243
Yeah, Microtik.

02:06:14.563 --> 02:06:16.024
Yeah, Pineapple Express got it.

02:06:16.043 --> 02:06:17.925
It's not like that.

02:06:17.944 --> 02:06:18.145
Latvian.

02:06:18.204 --> 02:06:18.945
They're Latvian.

02:06:18.966 --> 02:06:19.605
That's who they are.

02:06:19.765 --> 02:06:20.006
Okay.

02:06:20.126 --> 02:06:20.987
I knew they were European.

02:06:21.667 --> 02:06:22.688
Apologies to Latvians.

02:06:24.529 --> 02:06:24.948
But yeah,

02:06:24.988 --> 02:06:28.150
so they're a Latvian network equipment

02:06:28.190 --> 02:06:29.231
manufacturing company.

02:06:29.671 --> 02:06:30.431
I don't know much about them,

02:06:31.172 --> 02:06:32.434
but I remember Jonah mentioned them when

02:06:32.453 --> 02:06:33.734
we were talking about this story in the

02:06:33.753 --> 02:06:34.255
first place.

02:06:34.494 --> 02:06:34.675
Yeah.

02:06:36.841 --> 02:06:37.600
And I also just wanted to say,

02:06:37.841 --> 02:06:38.282
I checked,

02:06:38.301 --> 02:06:39.521
because I know we have a page about

02:06:39.582 --> 02:06:39.981
routers.

02:06:40.362 --> 02:06:43.162
OpenWrt and OpenSense are currently our

02:06:43.203 --> 02:06:45.083
two top recommendations.

02:06:45.323 --> 02:06:46.524
So if you can find something that's

02:06:46.543 --> 02:06:47.703
compatible with those,

02:06:47.764 --> 02:06:49.885
that would probably be your best bet.

02:06:51.284 --> 02:06:51.604
Yeah.

02:06:51.864 --> 02:06:53.206
I mean, you can also buy the...

02:06:53.805 --> 02:06:56.846
I got the OpenWrt one, which is like...

02:06:58.226 --> 02:07:02.887
It supports the OpenWrt project.

02:07:03.429 --> 02:07:04.569
But again, that's...

02:07:05.972 --> 02:07:07.493
as far as I'm aware that was coming

02:07:07.533 --> 02:07:08.135
from China.

02:07:08.435 --> 02:07:11.256
So, you know, Oh no, I guess,

02:07:11.356 --> 02:07:12.637
but I feel like everything's made in

02:07:12.677 --> 02:07:12.997
China.

02:07:13.057 --> 02:07:13.979
So I feel like that's,

02:07:14.538 --> 02:07:17.220
I haven't heard of a EU made router

02:07:17.761 --> 02:07:18.261
or anything.

02:07:18.481 --> 02:07:18.662
So,

02:07:19.716 --> 02:07:20.317
Yeah, I was going to say,

02:07:20.356 --> 02:07:22.658
that was kind of the point that Jonah

02:07:22.677 --> 02:07:24.279
and I kept harping on when we talked

02:07:24.298 --> 02:07:24.918
about this story,

02:07:24.998 --> 02:07:27.619
is that there are no American-made

02:07:27.779 --> 02:07:28.220
routers.

02:07:28.261 --> 02:07:29.480
They're all made in China,

02:07:29.541 --> 02:07:30.721
except for apparently there's one from

02:07:30.782 --> 02:07:31.242
Starlink,

02:07:31.261 --> 02:07:32.502
which I'm sure is a total coincidence.

02:07:32.542 --> 02:07:34.403
But anyways, so I mean,

02:07:34.662 --> 02:07:37.724
this whole idea of like, yeah,

02:07:37.743 --> 02:07:38.845
I don't know.

02:07:38.885 --> 02:07:40.104
And I don't know if Europe's any

02:07:40.145 --> 02:07:42.786
different, but here in America, for sure,

02:07:43.247 --> 02:07:43.827
there are no

02:07:45.122 --> 02:07:46.305
made in American routers.

02:07:46.324 --> 02:07:47.426
Like there's some of them are designed

02:07:47.445 --> 02:07:49.208
here from American companies like Netgear

02:07:49.248 --> 02:07:49.789
and Cisco,

02:07:49.850 --> 02:07:52.713
but they're all manufactured and assembled

02:07:53.274 --> 02:07:54.997
in China or overseas.

02:07:55.037 --> 02:07:58.641
So, yeah.

02:07:58.662 --> 02:08:00.564
I am seeing some interesting stuff about

02:08:00.805 --> 02:08:01.565
MikroTik.

02:08:02.603 --> 02:08:02.703
Um,

02:08:02.722 --> 02:08:05.724
apparently a lot of their stuff isn't made

02:08:05.764 --> 02:08:06.564
in China now.

02:08:06.604 --> 02:08:07.824
It's made in other countries.

02:08:07.944 --> 02:08:10.444
So that is interesting.

02:08:10.845 --> 02:08:11.166
Um,

02:08:12.006 --> 02:08:13.525
so I guess we're seeing a lot of

02:08:13.565 --> 02:08:15.127
companies kind of divesting from,

02:08:15.407 --> 02:08:18.688
or at least trying to, uh, I guess,

02:08:19.787 --> 02:08:20.908
uh, what do you call that word?

02:08:20.969 --> 02:08:24.590
Like have multiple bases of manufacturing

02:08:25.390 --> 02:08:26.189
diversifying.

02:08:26.250 --> 02:08:26.609
Thank you.

02:08:26.670 --> 02:08:27.631
I don't know what it is today.

02:08:27.671 --> 02:08:29.190
I can't find any words that I'm going

02:08:29.270 --> 02:08:29.530
to say.

02:08:29.570 --> 02:08:30.190
Me either.

02:08:30.811 --> 02:08:31.752
Words are hard tonight.

02:08:33.574 --> 02:08:37.158
But yeah, so yeah, I mean,

02:08:37.680 --> 02:08:39.521
it's good to see that there's more stuff.

02:08:39.601 --> 02:08:39.782
I mean,

02:08:39.902 --> 02:08:42.706
I think it's still like the national

02:08:42.805 --> 02:08:44.608
security concern is probably still the

02:08:44.648 --> 02:08:45.189
same, right?

02:08:45.229 --> 02:08:48.153
Like Vietnam or like Malaysia.

02:08:48.252 --> 02:08:48.493
I mean,

02:08:48.533 --> 02:08:50.354
there's still the possibility of them

02:08:50.435 --> 02:08:50.676
being.

02:08:52.837 --> 02:08:53.877
doing something sus,

02:08:53.957 --> 02:08:58.801
but I think it's probably not that likely.

02:08:58.841 --> 02:08:59.042
I mean,

02:08:59.082 --> 02:09:01.103
I haven't seen any evidence that there's

02:09:01.143 --> 02:09:03.385
been any routers that have been tampered

02:09:03.425 --> 02:09:04.204
like that from, like,

02:09:04.265 --> 02:09:05.966
any of these big American companies.

02:09:06.046 --> 02:09:08.548
So I'm not sure how much of a

02:09:08.588 --> 02:09:09.009
risk that is.

02:09:10.260 --> 02:09:12.041
And just to point that out, yeah,

02:09:12.081 --> 02:09:13.101
it's like we – first of all,

02:09:13.122 --> 02:09:14.261
we don't have any evidence that there's

02:09:14.302 --> 02:09:14.962
been any issues.

02:09:15.483 --> 02:09:17.283
This is all stuff we went over in

02:09:17.304 --> 02:09:17.644
the show.

02:09:18.145 --> 02:09:19.666
And I think the bigger concern would be

02:09:19.685 --> 02:09:22.846
like the cheap off-brand stuff or like the

02:09:22.867 --> 02:09:27.628
knockoff stuff because we have seen –

02:09:25.588 --> 02:09:26.909
I don't know about routers specifically,

02:09:26.949 --> 02:09:29.112
but we have seen like Android TVs.

02:09:29.152 --> 02:09:30.453
Like if you buy the really cheap Android

02:09:30.472 --> 02:09:31.793
TVs on Amazon,

02:09:32.253 --> 02:09:33.835
we've seen articles that talk about how

02:09:33.875 --> 02:09:34.154
like, yeah,

02:09:34.175 --> 02:09:36.037
a lot of them come preloaded with malware

02:09:36.077 --> 02:09:37.698
and they run botnets and stuff like that.

02:09:38.097 --> 02:09:39.859
So I think if you're getting a good

02:09:40.039 --> 02:09:42.582
reputable name brand router from a

02:09:42.782 --> 02:09:43.682
reputable source,

02:09:44.523 --> 02:09:45.823
i don't think there's really that much to

02:09:45.863 --> 02:09:46.984
worry about and then i think if you

02:09:47.024 --> 02:09:48.405
want to go the extra mile and be

02:09:48.506 --> 02:09:50.226
extra safe which of course we always

02:09:50.266 --> 02:09:51.887
recommend then you should put something

02:09:51.908 --> 02:09:54.090
like open sense on there um i i

02:09:54.270 --> 02:09:55.591
definitely want to get the open sense one

02:09:55.631 --> 02:09:57.231
next time i buy a router i have

02:09:57.252 --> 02:09:58.672
been very excited about that project i

02:09:58.693 --> 02:10:01.074
think it's really cool um i just my

02:10:01.095 --> 02:10:02.775
current router still has a lot of life

02:10:02.815 --> 02:10:03.856
left in it so i'm not ready to

02:10:03.877 --> 02:10:06.878
do that yet but um yeah i don't

02:10:06.899 --> 02:10:07.979
think it's a huge i

02:10:09.426 --> 02:10:11.306
I really disagree with the government on

02:10:12.087 --> 02:10:14.347
this whole like it's a risk thing because

02:10:14.387 --> 02:10:15.787
it literally is just trust me, bro,

02:10:15.828 --> 02:10:16.347
I said so.

02:10:16.628 --> 02:10:19.128
And not to get too far off topic,

02:10:19.208 --> 02:10:21.170
but that's an issue I've always had.

02:10:21.289 --> 02:10:22.871
Like I've literally met people that when I

02:10:22.911 --> 02:10:24.451
talk about privacy, they're like, well,

02:10:25.030 --> 02:10:26.212
I have a buddy who works in national

02:10:26.231 --> 02:10:27.752
security and he says like they've stopped

02:10:27.792 --> 02:10:28.672
so many bad things.

02:10:28.733 --> 02:10:29.052
And I'm like,

02:10:29.292 --> 02:10:31.373
then your buddy needs to come forward and

02:10:31.434 --> 02:10:32.493
tell us about that.

02:10:32.753 --> 02:10:33.413
Because right now,

02:10:33.573 --> 02:10:35.694
every study we have says that mass

02:10:35.715 --> 02:10:37.376
surveillance has literally never done

02:10:37.536 --> 02:10:37.996
anything

02:10:38.615 --> 02:10:40.676
and always makes things worse than better.

02:10:41.077 --> 02:10:43.117
And so if it is actually making the

02:10:43.136 --> 02:10:43.898
world a better place,

02:10:44.337 --> 02:10:45.877
we need to have that information so that

02:10:45.898 --> 02:10:47.257
we can have this debate in good,

02:10:47.318 --> 02:10:47.918
honest faith.

02:10:48.259 --> 02:10:49.738
Because right now it doesn't seem like

02:10:49.759 --> 02:10:50.338
that's the case.

02:10:50.819 --> 02:10:52.380
And so that's how I feel about this

02:10:52.420 --> 02:10:53.640
whole like router ban.

02:10:53.659 --> 02:10:54.039
It's like, oh,

02:10:54.060 --> 02:10:55.400
these things are national security risk.

02:10:55.740 --> 02:10:56.480
Where's your evidence?

02:10:57.020 --> 02:10:58.622
Because right now there is no evidence and

02:10:58.641 --> 02:10:59.481
you sound like an idiot.

02:11:00.101 --> 02:11:02.983
So yeah, I don't know.

02:11:03.002 --> 02:11:03.523
That's my opinion.

02:11:04.751 --> 02:11:08.671
Yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know.

02:11:08.811 --> 02:11:10.033
I don't know what it's like in the

02:11:10.132 --> 02:11:11.212
US really that much.

02:11:11.573 --> 02:11:14.694
But in Australia, there's a lot of, yeah,

02:11:14.734 --> 02:11:16.434
fear mongering about that sort of stuff.

02:11:17.694 --> 02:11:24.096
How we need to have more laws to

02:11:24.136 --> 02:11:25.237
see criminal stuff.

02:11:25.337 --> 02:11:25.556
I mean,

02:11:25.577 --> 02:11:28.177
we have the assistance and access laws.

02:11:29.509 --> 02:11:31.730
which basically means that police get

02:11:32.011 --> 02:11:34.131
access to stuff without a warrant and

02:11:34.171 --> 02:11:36.613
stuff um you know i think there's plenty

02:11:36.634 --> 02:11:37.914
of countries that are doing a similar

02:11:37.935 --> 02:11:42.877
thing um i just want to quickly uh

02:11:42.938 --> 02:11:46.341
circle back to glinet uh apparently i mean

02:11:46.421 --> 02:11:48.061
i don't i don't really research this

02:11:48.082 --> 02:11:49.903
because i don't own a glinet one i

02:11:49.943 --> 02:11:51.184
just see it that's what a lot of

02:11:51.203 --> 02:11:53.765
people use um it does look like they

02:11:53.926 --> 02:11:54.185
are

02:11:55.662 --> 02:11:57.923
based in at least according to their

02:11:57.984 --> 02:12:01.465
websites uh one of their offices is in

02:12:01.524 --> 02:12:03.225
hong kong and the other one is in

02:12:03.286 --> 02:12:07.567
shenzhen um so i guess just be aware

02:12:07.587 --> 02:12:09.046
of that if that's a concern i mean

02:12:09.186 --> 02:12:12.047
i think basically all these router

02:12:12.087 --> 02:12:16.609
companies are even the open wrt one is

02:12:16.930 --> 02:12:20.310
manufactured and like done in china so i'm

02:12:20.331 --> 02:12:22.011
not really sure what the risk is there

02:12:22.572 --> 02:12:22.731
um

02:12:24.389 --> 02:12:26.649
against another company I think GLINET is

02:12:26.710 --> 02:12:32.592
very reputable so uh what's someone saying

02:12:32.773 --> 02:12:37.015
uh Sino Sinobu Sinobu it's actually worse

02:12:37.074 --> 02:12:38.414
in China and North Korea they're

02:12:38.454 --> 02:12:40.917
constantly tracked yeah yeah so like in a

02:12:40.936 --> 02:12:42.537
lot of these countries there is I'm not

02:12:42.556 --> 02:12:44.537
sure about North Korea but I know I've

02:12:44.557 --> 02:12:46.458
definitely seen stuff in China with like

02:12:46.498 --> 02:12:48.319
you know the mass surveillance they have

02:12:48.340 --> 02:12:48.640
they have

02:12:48.840 --> 02:12:51.162
like more cameras than people right like

02:12:51.402 --> 02:12:53.444
well not more but like they have a

02:12:53.503 --> 02:12:56.125
lot of cameras um if you've ever been

02:12:56.246 --> 02:12:57.987
there's like cameras literally everywhere

02:12:58.247 --> 02:13:00.469
um it'll be kind of striking thing to

02:13:00.509 --> 02:13:04.631
see um so I think yeah we obviously

02:13:04.671 --> 02:13:06.412
we don't want to have cameras literally

02:13:06.472 --> 02:13:09.015
everywhere tracking everybody or at least

02:13:09.175 --> 02:13:11.636
recording what everyone's doing um

02:13:13.463 --> 02:13:16.525
So yeah, I don't know.

02:13:16.565 --> 02:13:20.427
It's kind of been a thing where I

02:13:20.448 --> 02:13:21.708
feel like a couple of years ago,

02:13:21.769 --> 02:13:23.689
people were kind of making things about

02:13:25.451 --> 02:13:27.893
how China had a digital ID system,

02:13:27.912 --> 02:13:29.634
and it was super dystopian.

02:13:30.154 --> 02:13:31.774
But now we're like, oh, no,

02:13:31.814 --> 02:13:33.536
let's introduce a digital ID bill.

02:13:33.576 --> 02:13:34.336
It's like, guys,

02:13:34.355 --> 02:13:36.398
what about what you were saying a few

02:13:36.438 --> 02:13:36.938
years ago?

02:13:37.738 --> 02:13:38.359
What's happening?

02:13:39.444 --> 02:13:41.466
I've literally seen some politicians here

02:13:41.485 --> 02:13:42.405
in the US point out,

02:13:42.426 --> 02:13:43.426
or maybe not the politicians,

02:13:43.466 --> 02:13:44.747
but I've seen people point out,

02:13:44.766 --> 02:13:45.106
they're like,

02:13:45.327 --> 02:13:47.108
this is literally the stuff we criticize

02:13:47.247 --> 02:13:48.307
Russia and China for.

02:13:48.448 --> 02:13:49.387
Why are we doing this?

02:13:49.448 --> 02:13:51.969
So yeah, it's not cool.

02:13:53.770 --> 02:13:55.149
Yeah, it's kind of frustrating.

02:13:56.270 --> 02:13:57.131
But yeah, I mean,

02:13:57.671 --> 02:13:59.051
is there any other comments you can see

02:13:59.091 --> 02:14:00.431
here that we haven't already got to?

02:14:02.694 --> 02:14:04.875
No, I haven't seen anything.

02:14:05.034 --> 02:14:07.034
Looks like everybody's been a little bit

02:14:07.074 --> 02:14:07.734
quiet this week,

02:14:07.774 --> 02:14:09.975
but we still appreciate you guys tuning in

02:14:10.256 --> 02:14:12.176
and watching, even if you're lurking.

02:14:12.417 --> 02:14:13.056
Thank you for listening.

02:14:14.657 --> 02:14:16.478
All the updates from This Week in Privacy

02:14:16.537 --> 02:14:18.438
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02:14:18.498 --> 02:14:20.298
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02:14:20.319 --> 02:14:21.998
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02:14:22.020 --> 02:14:22.640
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02:14:22.979 --> 02:14:23.819
I want to remind you guys,

02:14:23.979 --> 02:14:26.020
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02:14:26.041 --> 02:14:26.740
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02:14:26.780 --> 02:14:28.280
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02:14:28.320 --> 02:14:29.481
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02:14:29.542 --> 02:14:30.381
Little notification there.

02:14:31.122 --> 02:14:32.703
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02:14:32.783 --> 02:14:35.203
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02:14:35.224 --> 02:14:36.824
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02:14:37.125 --> 02:14:39.006
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02:14:39.685 --> 02:14:41.787
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02:14:41.828 --> 02:14:43.467
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02:14:43.528 --> 02:14:46.649
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02:14:46.670 --> 02:14:48.211
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02:14:48.251 --> 02:14:49.912
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02:14:49.931 --> 02:14:50.212
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02:14:51.832 --> 02:14:53.332
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02:15:18.164 --> 02:15:20.025
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02:15:20.046 --> 02:15:20.827
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02:16:03.939 --> 02:16:19.189
okay um all right so oh do you

02:16:19.210 --> 02:16:28.496
have to go okay oh god my phone

02:16:28.536 --> 02:16:30.016
is almost dead no